Steve, i ordered the Holley 1-4 psi. Will pick it up tomorrow morning. Got it at a reputable local speed shop.
'72 CS Resurection - real mess
- Thread starter Vbigdog
- Start date
Steve, i ordered the Holley 1-4 psi. Will pick it up tomorrow morning. Got it at a reputable local speed shop.
Dr. 61porsche, you are telepathic. Redline rebuild kits due by weeks end. Will follow the below instructions. I am tempted to purchase 38's, they more straight forward? Im not concerned about mileage, only reliability. Enjoying this experience dispite tone of voice.
Rear carb 50% stripped
Initial findings:
-Carb(s) have been rebuilt in the past, new-ish looking seals, screws that have tooling marks etc....
-Bottom of the fuel bowl had ~ < 1/16th" of varnish and sediment from sitting
I'll assume the sitting is the culprit
-The (what I think is a jet, at the bottom of the fuel bowl?) on the left in this picture has "130" stamped, the jet on the right has "125"
-I'm using .035 and .026 welding wire to chase small passages along with shop air. I've gotten a face full ... when air goes in one place, I'm not altogether sure where it's going to come out...
-There is a "V" shaped (?) that introduces fuel. One side clearly is a fuel passage, the other side (on mine) is solid metal. Is this normal?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21924146@N03/7177205861/in/photostream/
Initial findings:
-Carb(s) have been rebuilt in the past, new-ish looking seals, screws that have tooling marks etc....
-Bottom of the fuel bowl had ~ < 1/16th" of varnish and sediment from sitting
I'll assume the sitting is the culprit
-The (what I think is a jet, at the bottom of the fuel bowl?) on the left in this picture has "130" stamped, the jet on the right has "125"
-I'm using .035 and .026 welding wire to chase small passages along with shop air. I've gotten a face full ... when air goes in one place, I'm not altogether sure where it's going to come out...
-There is a "V" shaped (?) that introduces fuel. One side clearly is a fuel passage, the other side (on mine) is solid metal. Is this normal?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21924146@N03/7177205861/in/photostream/
Hold
the carb up to a strong light while looking at the butterflies from the bottom. What you're looking for is that everything is even. Next grab the butterflies and make sure they are not loose and the screws need tightened. ( escpecially for those that have zeniths.)
With the adjustment screw and your thumb or finger on the butterfly close the butterfly. That's ground zero. It's much more precise now than later. Then adjust per the weber instructions- AND a little more open. 1/8 turn or so.
Yes, those are jets. Sediment is bad. Record all the sizes of the jets and be careful not to mix up.
That electrical device on the left is an idle solenoid. Remove it to clean out that passage. hand tighten and a smidge more. Make sure you put the wires back on when done.
On the left is the accelerator pump- aka- the squirter. That squirt gives you extra fuel when accelerating- it squirts out of the brass tube/ orfice- make sure it's working before you button it up by pouring back in some fuel and operating it.
the carb up to a strong light while looking at the butterflies from the bottom. What you're looking for is that everything is even. Next grab the butterflies and make sure they are not loose and the screws need tightened. ( escpecially for those that have zeniths.)
With the adjustment screw and your thumb or finger on the butterfly close the butterfly. That's ground zero. It's much more precise now than later. Then adjust per the weber instructions- AND a little more open. 1/8 turn or so.
Yes, those are jets. Sediment is bad. Record all the sizes of the jets and be careful not to mix up.
That electrical device on the left is an idle solenoid. Remove it to clean out that passage. hand tighten and a smidge more. Make sure you put the wires back on when done.
On the left is the accelerator pump- aka- the squirter. That squirt gives you extra fuel when accelerating- it squirts out of the brass tube/ orfice- make sure it's working before you button it up by pouring back in some fuel and operating it.
-Butterflies top and bottom look good - no / virtually no light after cleaning. Should the screws have a flavor of lock-tight to secure in the shaft?
-The rebuild kit *does not* have the butterfly shaft seals. I would expect shaft seals in a rebuild kit - no?
-Which adjustment screw? I think there are about 462 adjustment screws...:smile:
-Are "130" and "125" left/right respectively correct values?
-Done
-Will do, this diaphragm is included in the rebuild kit.
Question: Are the floats *supposed* to have epoxied holes in the top?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21924146@N03/7177932103/in/photostream/
Question 2: This rebuild kit from Redline is (in my opinion) weak. It doesn't have shaft seals/small cotter pins...etc... a number of other wear items. Should I have ordered, or does a more comprehensive kit exist? I don't want to do this twice.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21924146@N03/7363158330/in/photostream/
Honolulu
Well-Known Member
I have to pop in and note that acetone is a good and effective solvent where I come from in the world of making surfboards from polyester resin.
HOWEVER, acetone also has the ability to transport poly resin across the skin and into your bloodstream. Poly resin is a known carcinogen, this is a "bad thing" and one should only use acetone and poly resin when using gloves that are a known barrier to acetone.
In this case, acetone is suggested as a good solvent for old cr*p on carbs. That is probably so considering the source of the suggestion, but PLEASE use gloves that you know are not acetone-permeable. Permeability/suitability is usually available from the manufacturer or other online sources. Not all gloves are acetone-impermeable.
You don't want to end up like some of the long-time surfboard glassers, some of whom are pretty crazed. That is all.
HOWEVER, acetone also has the ability to transport poly resin across the skin and into your bloodstream. Poly resin is a known carcinogen, this is a "bad thing" and one should only use acetone and poly resin when using gloves that are a known barrier to acetone.
In this case, acetone is suggested as a good solvent for old cr*p on carbs. That is probably so considering the source of the suggestion, but PLEASE use gloves that you know are not acetone-permeable. Permeability/suitability is usually available from the manufacturer or other online sources. Not all gloves are acetone-impermeable.
You don't want to end up like some of the long-time surfboard glassers, some of whom are pretty crazed. That is all.
No
to rebuilding the throttle shafts/ parts in a kit. That's actually a machinist's job depending on what all the issues are. Webers don't usually suffer from wear in that area.I've found a lot of loose butterflies though. If yours are tight best to leave them alone.
The main linkage- screw. The butterfly's position is important as it sets the airflow at idle and as it opens corresponds with a given amount of fuel. By starting at closed and noting where that is on the screw slot position you don't have to guess.
Larger jets go on the primaries- the larger sized barrels. That's a stock size. Gas today is a blend; that blend causes the need for a bit more gas. But just record the jet sizes for now.
Yes to the epoxy or solder. Shake them to see if there's any fuel inside or submerse them and look for bubbles.
Kits- yeah; not the best nowadays. get to know your local hardware store with all the little nuts, bolts, etc.
The accelerator pump diaphram- check it and see if it's in the kit. If it's hard, cracked, etc. you need a new one. If you need one buy two and do both to save yourself the agrevation.
Jets- some guys just buy new. If they've been there a while, I tend to agree. Just more precise.
Tip- don't throw anything away. It may not be in the kit or you may forget what that old one looks like in detail. Compare everything.:shock:
to rebuilding the throttle shafts/ parts in a kit. That's actually a machinist's job depending on what all the issues are. Webers don't usually suffer from wear in that area.I've found a lot of loose butterflies though. If yours are tight best to leave them alone.
The main linkage- screw. The butterfly's position is important as it sets the airflow at idle and as it opens corresponds with a given amount of fuel. By starting at closed and noting where that is on the screw slot position you don't have to guess.
Larger jets go on the primaries- the larger sized barrels. That's a stock size. Gas today is a blend; that blend causes the need for a bit more gas. But just record the jet sizes for now.
Yes to the epoxy or solder. Shake them to see if there's any fuel inside or submerse them and look for bubbles.
Kits- yeah; not the best nowadays. get to know your local hardware store with all the little nuts, bolts, etc.
The accelerator pump diaphram- check it and see if it's in the kit. If it's hard, cracked, etc. you need a new one. If you need one buy two and do both to save yourself the agrevation.
Jets- some guys just buy new. If they've been there a while, I tend to agree. Just more precise.
Tip- don't throw anything away. It may not be in the kit or you may forget what that old one looks like in detail. Compare everything.:shock:
Thank you for looking out for my, and the forum's well being - health wise. Very much appreciated.
I have actually used paint thinner, scrubbing and for very stubborn select areas, a very short burst of brake-kleen. Shop air and a few bits of MIG weld wire for passages and such.
Latex gloves have held up well - but I will check if they are suitable for this paint thinner Use Case.
I have actually used paint thinner, scrubbing and for very stubborn select areas, a very short burst of brake-kleen. Shop air and a few bits of MIG weld wire for passages and such.
Latex gloves have held up well - but I will check if they are suitable for this paint thinner Use Case.
The primary shaft has ~ 0.010 +/- of radial play. The secondary has virtually no play at all. I've put the butterfly's back together, and screwed them in tight. At this point, both primary and secondary are water (ahem, paint thinner) tight - almost literally. No light, no/very little liquid gets past. I have not used LockTite or similar. Is this OK?
Is this the screw?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21924146@N03/7178163429/in/photostream/
-no bubbles on the floats...they float. When shaken, are completely empty.
-it is cracked, in 3 places. Of all the new parts in the carb, this appears old.
-done
Update
Update: Both carb's have been disassembled/soaked/passages chased w .026 wire/blown out w clean/dry shop air. Bottoms of both bowls had a healthy amount of sediment and crud from sitting. Both carbs were full of what were clearly new parts - it appears they were rebuilt and then the car sat.
Per thread and weber instructions:
Step 1: Bench set up - idle screw (set with chokes full open/chocked w piece of wood) to exactly 1 turn. I set the turn by cycling the butter flies (free movement), holding them up to the light and also pouring some thinner/cleaner - at the full closed position (with the idle screw completely backed off) both primary and secondary of both carbs held fluid. Very tight. From here, I used a 0.004 feeler gage to "creep up" on when the idle screw would engage. Once engaged, "1 turn" was set.
Step 2 Next up: Bench set the idle mixture screw:
This one was easy - gently, screwed in until the idle mixture screw bottomed out, then back out 2 turns.
Step 3: Bolt carbs back onto intakes
Question/problem: Are the thermal isolators (?) supposed to be the same thickness? PO has one (front carb) that appears to be a plastic material, 3/8" think, and the rear carb has a fibrous isolator that is approx. 1/4' thick.
With carbs bolted on, and the linkage NOT hooked up, i.e. both carbs are independent, I started the engine (and, damn if it didn't start first turn of the key) - it ran, exactly as the directions stated, like a tractor; approx 500-600 RPM, rough - but it ran. From here, while the engine is running, I backed out the idle mixture screws in 1/4 turn increments keeping notes and adjusting both carbs the same. Engine kept running better at low RMP for 2 1/2 turns out, and at 2 3/4 turns started running worse. Screwed back into to 2 1/2 and called this step done.
Question/problem:
Old carbs had a coolant/radiator based choke that was never hooked up by PO. I removed and installed new electric chokes with the rebuild. I have no clue how to set the chokes, i.e. "index" the new electrics. 12V verified to the idle solenoid and chokes. Chokes are almost certainly NOT set correctly.
Step 4: Focus on fuel pressure
From an earlier thread, I said that the car was running both an electric (mounted on the firewall) *and* manual cam operated fuel pumps "at 7 to8 PSI) per the P.o.S made in china fuel gage I got at an Autozone on a Sunday (only place open near me, and I wanted to know the pressure). Today, however, I picked up the Holley pressure regulator and a proper/quality liquid dampened Fuel pressure gage. First thing installed was the new gage, and started the engine: Read "3 PSI" +/- a slight amount. Moral of the story: Cheap gage yielded cheap results. I don't need the regulator. Also, have removed the electric fuel pump (I think it should "push" from the trunk anyway, rather that "pull" all the way from the firewall.
Step 5:
Hook up throttle linkage, start car. Ran same as when linkage was not installed at idle.
When rev'ing to 2000 RPM, engine runs almost exactly the same (and crappy) as before I rebuilt the carbs. In short, zero improvement.
After all this, car still runs like crappola. (technical term).
Update: Both carb's have been disassembled/soaked/passages chased w .026 wire/blown out w clean/dry shop air. Bottoms of both bowls had a healthy amount of sediment and crud from sitting. Both carbs were full of what were clearly new parts - it appears they were rebuilt and then the car sat.
Per thread and weber instructions:
Step 1: Bench set up - idle screw (set with chokes full open/chocked w piece of wood) to exactly 1 turn. I set the turn by cycling the butter flies (free movement), holding them up to the light and also pouring some thinner/cleaner - at the full closed position (with the idle screw completely backed off) both primary and secondary of both carbs held fluid. Very tight. From here, I used a 0.004 feeler gage to "creep up" on when the idle screw would engage. Once engaged, "1 turn" was set.
Step 2 Next up: Bench set the idle mixture screw:
This one was easy - gently, screwed in until the idle mixture screw bottomed out, then back out 2 turns.
Step 3: Bolt carbs back onto intakes
Question/problem: Are the thermal isolators (?) supposed to be the same thickness? PO has one (front carb) that appears to be a plastic material, 3/8" think, and the rear carb has a fibrous isolator that is approx. 1/4' thick.
With carbs bolted on, and the linkage NOT hooked up, i.e. both carbs are independent, I started the engine (and, damn if it didn't start first turn of the key) - it ran, exactly as the directions stated, like a tractor; approx 500-600 RPM, rough - but it ran. From here, while the engine is running, I backed out the idle mixture screws in 1/4 turn increments keeping notes and adjusting both carbs the same. Engine kept running better at low RMP for 2 1/2 turns out, and at 2 3/4 turns started running worse. Screwed back into to 2 1/2 and called this step done.
Question/problem:
Old carbs had a coolant/radiator based choke that was never hooked up by PO. I removed and installed new electric chokes with the rebuild. I have no clue how to set the chokes, i.e. "index" the new electrics. 12V verified to the idle solenoid and chokes. Chokes are almost certainly NOT set correctly.
Step 4: Focus on fuel pressure
From an earlier thread, I said that the car was running both an electric (mounted on the firewall) *and* manual cam operated fuel pumps "at 7 to8 PSI) per the P.o.S made in china fuel gage I got at an Autozone on a Sunday (only place open near me, and I wanted to know the pressure). Today, however, I picked up the Holley pressure regulator and a proper/quality liquid dampened Fuel pressure gage. First thing installed was the new gage, and started the engine: Read "3 PSI" +/- a slight amount. Moral of the story: Cheap gage yielded cheap results. I don't need the regulator. Also, have removed the electric fuel pump (I think it should "push" from the trunk anyway, rather that "pull" all the way from the firewall.
Step 5:
Hook up throttle linkage, start car. Ran same as when linkage was not installed at idle.
When rev'ing to 2000 RPM, engine runs almost exactly the same (and crappy) as before I rebuilt the carbs. In short, zero improvement.
After all this, car still runs like crappola. (technical term).
Maybe I missed it.....Compression checked?
Did you set the chokes open fully ?
They say 90% of all carb problems are electrical......
Timing checked? Plug wires on correct cylinders? How do the plugs look?
Distributor mechanical advance free?
DaveG
Did you set the chokes open fully ?
They say 90% of all carb problems are electrical......
Timing checked? Plug wires on correct cylinders? How do the plugs look?
Distributor mechanical advance free?
DaveG
Wrong screw
was turned.
Two carbs, two screws. At 5-600 rpm it's not surprising it runs like crappola. Go back to the 1 turn screw. Screw both till you get to 850-950 realizing the math- two carbs each gets half. Now you can tune.
Now listen to each carb ( a piece of hose helps) and try to tell if one hisses more than the other. On the one with the least hiss turn that screw only till you think they're the same.
Now the trick- drag out that crusty vacuuum guage and hook it up. Whatcha got?
Go back to 2 turns out screws- turn it end till the engine drops rpm. Then turn out till engine runs best. Both screws will NOT be the same no matter what the instructions say unless your compression is spot on even.
Go back and do it again. It will change. Slower this time. smaller turns. It's definately not Ron Popiel set it and forget it time just yet.
Check your timing. get it to 1800 rpm. Rock steady?
Answers to your other questions, but first one to you-
Jet sizes- whatcha got?
Isolators- doesn't matter. You did go back and triple check that all the screws, bolts, etc. were snug and just a little more? No air leaks?
Choke- easy. Dead cold. Rotate till you see the choke flap barely opens. then set them the same. They actually should be open just a bit. When the car starts it sucks the flaps down, as the engine starts to warm/ electric element heats up, it releases the flaps. What rpm at cold and choke on? Is it cold where you are or hot? 1500 is a good cold start. Make a mark. We may need to up that cold idle inside the choke if not 1500 or so.
My question- started right up with no choke? Little on the rich side. Two turn screws need to go in a bit.
was turned.
Two carbs, two screws. At 5-600 rpm it's not surprising it runs like crappola. Go back to the 1 turn screw. Screw both till you get to 850-950 realizing the math- two carbs each gets half. Now you can tune.
Now listen to each carb ( a piece of hose helps) and try to tell if one hisses more than the other. On the one with the least hiss turn that screw only till you think they're the same.
Now the trick- drag out that crusty vacuuum guage and hook it up. Whatcha got?
Go back to 2 turns out screws- turn it end till the engine drops rpm. Then turn out till engine runs best. Both screws will NOT be the same no matter what the instructions say unless your compression is spot on even.
Go back and do it again. It will change. Slower this time. smaller turns. It's definately not Ron Popiel set it and forget it time just yet.
Check your timing. get it to 1800 rpm. Rock steady?
Answers to your other questions, but first one to you-
Jet sizes- whatcha got?
Isolators- doesn't matter. You did go back and triple check that all the screws, bolts, etc. were snug and just a little more? No air leaks?
Choke- easy. Dead cold. Rotate till you see the choke flap barely opens. then set them the same. They actually should be open just a bit. When the car starts it sucks the flaps down, as the engine starts to warm/ electric element heats up, it releases the flaps. What rpm at cold and choke on? Is it cold where you are or hot? 1500 is a good cold start. Make a mark. We may need to up that cold idle inside the choke if not 1500 or so.
My question- started right up with no choke? Little on the rich side. Two turn screws need to go in a bit.
Not yet, will do.
Per your suggestion, I removed the electric choke housing(s) are re-indexed so that the chokes are fully opened. Car ran a little better. Not the problem.
Yes, it was off "a little". I reset/set the timing so the little silver ball is lined up. Car ran a little better, but the timing was not off "too much"...BUT...a little bell started to go off - timing should not have been off at all. In theory. Why's says me...put this nugget on the list.
Triple checked *BUT* started to wonder if the brand new wires, encased in a brand new sleeve were mis-labled from the factory. I rechecked the firing order and numbers on the distrib cap - all good. However, the car is behaving very much like a incorrect or bad wire.
Not yet checked. Will do next on the list. I have new Bosch plugs, will gap to 0.026 and install this week.
BINGO-BINGO-BINGO!!! Ring the bell DaveG - you got it! Mechanical advance is NOT moving. Once I got to this step (I didn't check your suggestions in the order written) stopped for the night. Plate is not moving, essentially, at all. Possible cause(s) - and I'm embarrassed I didn't catch this when installing the new Pertronix - is the screw(s) may be too long from Pertronix, and need to be shortened. Or, simply the plate is bound in some other way. At a minimum, if this is not the whole problem, it is certainly a lot of the problem. Once fixed, I'll have to tune my now likely screwed-up-from-my-fiddling carbs.
Thank you very much - I very much appreciate the guidance from you and this forum.
Bpr6es
or the old style Bosch copper plugs.
or the old style Bosch copper plugs.
Ordered from the BMW dealership
Bosch "Super RO 007" written on insulator
"W7DC" stamped on the metal lug portion of the plug. No mention of platnum and ordered stock from BMW. Non-resistor copper.
I think I'm clean on the plugs.
Root cause
The collective forum may well revoke my user id...Ive found the root cause.
After pulling/rebuilding both carbs, pulling the distributor apart etc...root cause of back fire, poorly running found. Highly embarrasing.
Tonights task was to check compression. Pulled the plugs, and found #3 and#6 wet with gas and loose. Gapped the new plugs to .025, the engine is running better and pulling well. Still needs attention, but the two loose plugs were the issue.
A very sincere thank you, and apology for my jumping to the complicated instead of checking the basic.
Car is off to Mario tomorrow for a pre-Saratoga health check. Brakes are dragging a bit, after the first real road test under my ownership.
The collective forum may well revoke my user id...Ive found the root cause.
After pulling/rebuilding both carbs, pulling the distributor apart etc...root cause of back fire, poorly running found. Highly embarrasing.
Tonights task was to check compression. Pulled the plugs, and found #3 and#6 wet with gas and loose. Gapped the new plugs to .025, the engine is running better and pulling well. Still needs attention, but the two loose plugs were the issue.
A very sincere thank you, and apology for my jumping to the complicated instead of checking the basic.
Car is off to Mario tomorrow for a pre-Saratoga health check. Brakes are dragging a bit, after the first real road test under my ownership.