73 CS on BAT
- Thread starter rb1971
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Yeah, and it's getting hammered by "observers," probably unfairly, judging by the seller's transparent description. Saw your post. A lot of armchair Columbos chiming in, as I'm sure you noted.
It seems odd to me that we all lament the relatively low valuation of our beloved coupes, yet some members seem all too quick to fan the flames of FUD (rust) in the same breath.
I agree that potential buyers should be forewarned about the potential siren song these beautiful cars can sing, however, I feel many of our members are complicit in maintaining the coupe's lowly reputation and resulting valuation. I sense a consistent negative undertone any time a less than pristine example pops up for sale and is discussed on this forum.
/my $0.02
I agree that potential buyers should be forewarned about the potential siren song these beautiful cars can sing, however, I feel many of our members are complicit in maintaining the coupe's lowly reputation and resulting valuation. I sense a consistent negative undertone any time a less than pristine example pops up for sale and is discussed on this forum.
/my $0.02
Your 2 cents makes sense.
I think its a good thing that folks here point out potential problems with the e9:
-When I bought my coupe earlier this year, I got a lot of great advice from folks here, including specifically advice about the e9 and rust. I don't view this as dragging down the value of the car, rather my view is that a rust free car is worth tons more than a rusty one and some rust issues are not easy to identify.
- A buyer of a Mikwaukee car needs to think about rust. I grew up there, but people from other parts of the US might not appreciate this.
- And finally, there are wheeler/dealers out there seeing to profit by selling rusty cars that to people that take only a superficial look before jumping in. I don't mind raining on their parade one bit.
-When I bought my coupe earlier this year, I got a lot of great advice from folks here, including specifically advice about the e9 and rust. I don't view this as dragging down the value of the car, rather my view is that a rust free car is worth tons more than a rusty one and some rust issues are not easy to identify.
- A buyer of a Mikwaukee car needs to think about rust. I grew up there, but people from other parts of the US might not appreciate this.
- And finally, there are wheeler/dealers out there seeing to profit by selling rusty cars that to people that take only a superficial look before jumping in. I don't mind raining on their parade one bit.
deletion of fuel filler door ! amazing !
Whether it's a Boss 302 or Alfa Giulietta 750 centric site, it's always good to help along new members and strengthen and build on the depth of knowledge and support offered by these groups. There are countless groups/forums through the whole spectrum of interesting automobiles; and then there is this one. It's an activist, do good site to protect the innocent. Rubber bumper MGB or Miura S/V, if it has roofing tar over a pop riveted stop sign underneath, it's a game changer. You should be able to recognize this and apply it to your approach as a potential purchaser. Only on this site are you taken for a helpless victim who needs protection. Panteras have rust issues. E9s have issues; if you see rust flakes when you open the glove box on an E9, it is very serious. If the car has never been messed with and there might be a bubble or two from it's history as a daily driver in a fairy tale climate, it might be something that you can manage and assume some risk for. And, that is the uniqueness of this site. It assumes everybody is stupid and needs to be protected. Here is the effect:A beautiful and solid 911 SWB that has never been messed with and APPEARS to be rust free...well, probably has rust. Educated people know this and will still have an interest in such a car which drives value. A smart car enthusiast will look at a 3.0 and see a great car, great history and so on. If he knows the culture in the E9 USA market, he will know that one rust bubble will condemn his car to the scrap heap. An honest man will disclose the rust bubble and he will quickly experience a return salvo with all sorts of accusations. Don't spend 50,000 dollars which is half the price of a slower 1971 Porsche 911T on an E9 because one beautiful Sunday morning chamois of your E9 might reveal a bubble....and then, my friend, you are out of the club. Potential purchasers know this (remember, not everybody is stupid) and the intelligent purchaser sees himself as being profiled on this site by a lynch mob and will pull in his horns and be out of the buying pool. And there goes the E9 value.
Also reviewed on the thread below this one, sorry, the post below this one.
Brent
Well-Known Member
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Starting with the premise that repairing the same amount of rust on any vehicle generally costs the same, whereas the value of the vehicles themselves might vary widely. For example a 1971 Porsche 911T (cited by you above) is presently valued in the market a lot higher (eg. Hagerty condition 2 = $79,600) than a similar condition 1973 3.0cs (eg. Hagerty condition 2 = $39,300) like the one that is the subject of this thread. That's more than double the value in today's marketplace for the 911 over the cs. Take an example where both of these cars require $10k in rust repair and body work. Which car would you be more indifferent about the need for such expenditures if it required that amount of repair? The higher market valued 1971 911T or the lesser market valued 1973 3.0cs? This is what explains peoples alleged fixation with rust issues on E9, namely the simple relative economics of making rust repairs to a car of greater market value versus the same dollar repairs to a car of lesser market value.
The current longhood (i.e. pre'74) Porsche 911 market is flooded with rust buckets (see Beverly Hills Car Club as proof) that have been sitting in someone's field or barn and readily finds buyers for the simple fact that it is economic to pick up a rust bucket for $20K put $30-40k into it and know you will still be above water at the other end. Not so for a BMW 3.0cs, which is why you have to be very CAREFUL about what you start out with and your entry price, hence the negative comments you have been reading over at BAT.
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execmalibu
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I have never seen a group of enthusiasts for a Marque condemn so many of their cars!
I have owned hundreds of cars during the past 40 years like Porsches- 550 Spyder, 356s and 911s, Ferraris- 330GTS, Daytona,Dino Spyder , Cobra- 427 (CSX 4127) Mercedes- 3.5 Convert, 6.3,6.9, 280SL, Jag- E-types Series 1, and V12, Rolls- Corniche, Viper. And I have been involved with ALL of the owners groups,clubs for each Marque.
In all of those groups during all of that time I have never seen a group who condemn so many of their own cars.
Instead of commenting that a specific E9 offered for sale might need a little work or a restoration, there seems to be a concentrated ATTACK on almost every car offered for sale.
Even when the E9 is exceptionally clean and beautiful but very highly priced there are those E9 members on this site that will slam the seller for asking too much... If an E9 sells for crazy money isn't that good?
Are we not trying to save what ever E9s are savable for the future? If an E9 needs work shouldn't the buyer be the one who decides how much to spend and far to proceed?...
FWIW...
911 Porsches that were once considered rusty parts cars are now being saved from the crusher and are being rebuilt...
I have owned hundreds of cars during the past 40 years like Porsches- 550 Spyder, 356s and 911s, Ferraris- 330GTS, Daytona,Dino Spyder , Cobra- 427 (CSX 4127) Mercedes- 3.5 Convert, 6.3,6.9, 280SL, Jag- E-types Series 1, and V12, Rolls- Corniche, Viper. And I have been involved with ALL of the owners groups,clubs for each Marque.
In all of those groups during all of that time I have never seen a group who condemn so many of their own cars.
Instead of commenting that a specific E9 offered for sale might need a little work or a restoration, there seems to be a concentrated ATTACK on almost every car offered for sale.
Even when the E9 is exceptionally clean and beautiful but very highly priced there are those E9 members on this site that will slam the seller for asking too much... If an E9 sells for crazy money isn't that good?
Are we not trying to save what ever E9s are savable for the future? If an E9 needs work shouldn't the buyer be the one who decides how much to spend and far to proceed?...
FWIW...
911 Porsches that were once considered rusty parts cars are now being saved from the crusher and are being rebuilt...
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+1! Too many experts here.
Execmalibu
Thanks for the "reality check" on some these "armchair" concours judges and self appointed arbitratorsof style and correctness on this forum.
Routinely, cars are bagged on for not period correct radios,seats,steering wheels etc etc etc. And yet these are the same guys that will rip out the entire "period correct" drivetrain without a second thought. I don't get it.
good points Jeff. perhaps this could be our new year's resolution as a group. keep people informed of what's ahead of them ... continue to encourage people to save coupes. Peter has taken on the moldy car with some rust, and is going to have a great coupe when he's done. the journey he is taking us along while doing it is quite informative and interesting.
that being said, when a car is put up for sale (non CSL) and has an asking price of $80 to 90k and there is a significant amount of rust on it, or when a known rust bucket is put up for sale from the hollywood flipper ... i do think it is our duty to warn people what is ahead of them, or they should look for another car.
some new people have come into the forum looking for advice, and i think people clearly feel the responsibility to advise them properly. the difference in the e9 community vs. the pre '74 - 911 community is that those guys realize that the price to restore to value still has some upside, where the value of ours will put them underwater.
but it is also great to read positive things about cars that are put up for sale.
that being said, when a car is put up for sale (non CSL) and has an asking price of $80 to 90k and there is a significant amount of rust on it, or when a known rust bucket is put up for sale from the hollywood flipper ... i do think it is our duty to warn people what is ahead of them, or they should look for another car.
some new people have come into the forum looking for advice, and i think people clearly feel the responsibility to advise them properly. the difference in the e9 community vs. the pre '74 - 911 community is that those guys realize that the price to restore to value still has some upside, where the value of ours will put them underwater.
but it is also great to read positive things about cars that are put up for sale.
MyFemurHurts
Well-Known Member
I think that is very fair. I used this forum and looked at a lot of cars before I got mine. There were a few rapid flip cars with questionable rust that I passed on due to the feedback here, and I really appreciated that.
I bought one that I liked that needed some work, and it's a nice 10 footer. Admittedly, the first time I took mine to a show, and the first time Don saw it, I was terrified of what knits were going to be picked. Then everyone told me I had a really nice one and I breathed a massive sigh of relief.
This forum is pretty critical of drivers; we all want to see these things at 100 point concours cars. Sometimes we forget that if someone knows how to turn wrenches, keeps their car dry, and enjoys it while tinkering these are amazing machines. While it's nice to warn people of the bad ones that are over priced, it's rough when an honest example comes up and it gets beat up online.
As someone from probably the worst place to be a fast rusting car (Montreal, Quebec), all I care about on an E9 is internal corrosion. I'd be perfectly happy with a cosmetically trashed Coupe if it had stable levels of corrosion. The one I am most leery of is the shiny new paint example.
For me trashing a Coupe is solely based on corrosion, seen and unseen. Numbers matching means next to nothing to me. Original paint OTOH means a lot.
For me trashing a Coupe is solely based on corrosion, seen and unseen. Numbers matching means next to nothing to me. Original paint OTOH means a lot.
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Humboldtson
Member
I like the way this is going. I learned much from the comments. helped me find the car for me. I now have don building the motor and Richard doing the body work. All this brought about the comments. But a more positive tone by us who love this car feels right
Experience becomes a warning to others.
BAT members bash every car listed in my perusal of the comments.
Have found this forum to be a valuable tool when looking at my car before I purchased Athena. There were words of encouragement and discouragement. The armchair judges and experts were spot on with some of the issues I had to deal with.
BAT members bash every car listed in my perusal of the comments.
Have found this forum to be a valuable tool when looking at my car before I purchased Athena. There were words of encouragement and discouragement. The armchair judges and experts were spot on with some of the issues I had to deal with.
I have gotta tell you that although I haven't look close up, this car seems well worth the $20K.
It would be worthwhile for any prospective buyer to get a close eyes-on inspection. The car is in Milwaukee and so is Luis A. He knows cars of this vintage and the E9 in particular.
I would reach out and offer he and his wife a meal (at your expense) to the Iron Horse if he could do a PPI
A close look at the fender seams, under the carpets and at that spare tire well can tell a lot.
A 1973 with the unusual 1973 dagmars tells me it was not hit on the front. Good patina on the seats. Just the steering wheel needs to be changed (to a Nardi )
10 years ago this would have been a $10K car but now a parts car is being sold for close to that.
It would be worthwhile for any prospective buyer to get a close eyes-on inspection. The car is in Milwaukee and so is Luis A. He knows cars of this vintage and the E9 in particular.
I would reach out and offer he and his wife a meal (at your expense) to the Iron Horse if he could do a PPI
A close look at the fender seams, under the carpets and at that spare tire well can tell a lot.
A 1973 with the unusual 1973 dagmars tells me it was not hit on the front. Good patina on the seats. Just the steering wheel needs to be changed (to a Nardi
)10 years ago this would have been a $10K car but now a parts car is being sold for close to that.