911 prices vs. e9 pricing

[scottevest]

I can't help but wonder if e9 prices are inflated, based upon this result for a 911 and similar e9 that seem to be much higher. Thoughts?

Conda Green 1970 Porsche 911T Targa

Bid for the chance to own a Conda Green 1970 Porsche 911T Targa at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #36,968.

bringatrailer.com

 

[Markos]

911 prices are down as far as I know. I was thinking of picking up my neighbors Petrol blue 930 for an agreed upon flip, but the money just didn't seem to be there. Also, historically Targa's didn't pull that much cash. It has only been in the last 5 or so years that they started to spike. I'm not a p-car guy so I'm operating at the peak of my knowledge on the subject. I'm sure that @tferrer is following the market.

 

[scottevest]

911 prices are down as far as I know. I was thinking of picking up my neighbors Petrol blue 930 for an agreed upon flip, but the money just didn't seem to be there. Also, historically Targa's didn't pull that much cash. It has only been in the last 5 or so years that they started to spike. I'm not a p-car guy so I'm operating at the peak of my knowledge on the subject. I'm sure that @tferrer is following the market.

My 964 is going up up up... https://www.classic.com/m/porsche/911/964/

 

[Markos]

My 964 is going up up up... https://www.classic.com/m/porsche/911/964/

My two cents...

That 964 trend line is completely flat over the last two years. You can't look at averages with p-cars either, because there are numerous examples of sub 50K mile cars that get auctioned. That simply doesn't exist for BMW, so a value spike will be due to exceptional condition, modification, or mixing CSL's with CS's. BaT numbers on the 964 are down post-COVID, whereas your most basic e9 numbers are going up.

My observation is that all 3 series, 5 series, and 6 series BMW's have a glass ceiling that gets shattered after X number of years. Suddenly the market wakes up to these cars. It happened for e28's several years ago. The M6 happened years ago, but in the last year it has applied to 635's. The M635i was trailing but caught up. The e30 has always been widely popular, but now the e21 is getting the respect that it (IMO) deserves. While the e28 M5 has always been desirable, people are now paying much attention to the e34 M5. Clean e39 M5's are quickly going up in value as well. The e39 and e46 seem like the "current" last of the enthusiast BMW's, and basic models that aren't clapped out will raise in value.

What hasn't changed over time is the value of any 7 series BMW. They are the epitome of losing money after you leave the dealer. Any generation, it doesn't matter. The e23 was just arguably ugly. All models thereafter were overly complex. They were cheap and as a result, became beater cars for people who want a BMW. You can't find nice examples even if you try hard. When you do find one, you will be riddled with repair costs trying to overcome aging complexity.

 

[JFENG]

911: I love rear engines P-car’s, particularly the early 911’s and 356’s. But I think 911’s suffer a bit from their success. 55 years of continuous production and styling continuity have made them ubiquitous. And therefore what is special becomes less so. Other than a few limited edition models (GT2/3, Turbo-S, Speedster), I don’t even notice when a 911’s passes me road these days. I feel the same way about BMW M car’s after the E46/e39 era. I think there are at least 5 M-car’s on my two blocks (several M2’s and idiot that goes >60moh in our 25 zone in a blue M4, and a 2 M-SUV’s (an x5 and a smaller one).

I think this success therefore limits the ultimate appreciation of these cars.

 

[scottevest]

What do you all think of the green 911 BAT link i posted? I LOVE the car, color and the condition looks amazing. .Seems cheap

 

[Markos]

But I think 911’s suffer a bit from their success. 55 years of continuous production and styling continuity have made them ubiquitous. And therefore what is special becomes less so.

This is a common problem. In fact @sfdon was just complaining to me about dating supermodels. Despite being 10/10 they all start to look the same to him.

 

[Markos]

@bfeng,

At least BMW and Porsche haven’t succumbed to a new special model every six months like you see with Lamborghini and Ford.

 

['69 2800cs]

What do you all think of the green 911 BAT link i posted? I LOVE the car, color and the condition looks amazing. .Seems cheap

Well, it's a T and it's a targa. I don't know how deep you go into 911 values but an S coupe in the same color would have gone for a lot more.

 

[Dick Steinkamp]

This is a common problem. In fact @sfdon was just complaining to me about dating supermodels. Despite being 10/10 they all start to look the same to him.

Poor Don.

 

[tferrer]

First, one car doesn't make a market. It's also a T and and a Targa. They seem to have fallen off in a big way. It's a trend. They'll be hot 5 years from now just like they were 3 years ago. They are a blast to drive.

Also the huge increase in prices as @bfeng stated, has people looking for other enthusiast cars. Having work done on Porsches has also gotten extremely expensive as the specialist shops want to cash in. Having said that, I love early p-cars and find them a blast to drive. I'll also add that the early porsche community is quite large and tight knit and in my case are always up to go out for weekend runs on the norcal backroads. We usually have 6-10 cars ripping around and that camaraderie effects others that are exposed to it. It's that desire to be in a "special club" mentality.

Perhaps as more coupes get restored there will be a similar effect. Just not enough out there to create the type of community that p-cars have. I think the buyers at these high prices, have always appreciated the coupes but the horror stories held them away. The high dollar sales are almost all restored cars which are a low risk bet...

My 2 cents

 

[tmh]

Targas are convertibles and convertibles may seem romantic until you drive them and realize the tremendous tradeoff to structural rigidity. People don't realize this until you own one. I will never forget the analogy...cut the top of an egg off and see what is left as to structural rigidity.
Drive a Z4 coupe and you are at the polar extreme to a targa or convertible. Amazing cars and they are as rare as CS coupes!

 

[m5bb]

I bought a 87 911 Targa almost 4 years ago when my coupe was in many pieces and probably still in the metal shop for the R repairs.
I bought it with the following attitude.
1. Always wanted an air cooled Porsche.
2. 87 was similar to my 88 M5 as far as engine management and controls.
3. It had the better G50 trans.
4. It was red with black interior and a big ass wing on the back.
5. I knew I could learn to fix things on it and I have.
6. Looked at it like I would have fun and probably not loose any money except for insurance and maybe some repairs.
7. So far all of the above has worked. It's great fun to drive and has 150k on it. It runs great and doesn't leak oil. It was repainted an number of years ago so looks quite good. Only spent maybe $1000 on maintenance and repairs. AC needs to be rebuilt and if I would quit buying other cars (72 Tii) I would get that done this winter.
8. Happy owner and fun car with fun drives with Porsche club although most of them are big snobs.
9. Big problem is now coupe is drivable (never finished) and I'm kind of attached to the Porsche and the coupe. He, He!
Gary

 

[JFENG]

Porsche club although most of them are big snobs.

That is too bad. Apparently my P-car friends are u usual in that regard.

 

[tferrer]

Lot of the PCA guys are all in new, big dollar Porsches. The only way they work on their cars is by waxing and polishing.

I run with a group of air-cooled guys that all tend to work on their cars themselves and are all great guys.

 

[teahead]

One datapoint of a sold Porsche, and a couple datapoints of some CS's selling for >$100k, does not make a trend.

Prices are up (yes, even in this pandemic) for quality cars. Folks are cashing in on their 401k and they're now buying their dream cars. Done cars are appealing. Who wants to spend 3+ years in restoration with all the hassle when you can just turn the key and drive?

However, just on observations...

W113 Pagodas are kind of flat, #2 cars averaging $80k
Long nose 911s still creeping up. 964s, 993s kinda flat
E9s are steadily going up
E10s are steadily going up
musclecars are flat. Maybe going down some. Same w/50s AMerican cars (TriFive Chevy, DeSoto, Caddys).
Trucks are slightly going up. SUVs are going up (Broncos, scounts, early blazers, Wagoneers)
Old exotics (Gullwings, Dinos, early Ferraris, Aston Martins, 427 cobra) kind of flat except super rare ones (GTOs, 275GTB/4, Miura S)
Four-door sedans steadily going up (M5s, 500Es)
240z steadily going up.

 

[Drew20]

My two cents...

That 964 trend line is completely flat over the last two years. You can't look at averages with p-cars either, because there are numerous examples of sub 50K mile cars that get auctioned. That simply doesn't exist for BMW, so a value spike will be due to exceptional condition, modification, or mixing CSL's with CS's. BaT numbers on the 964 are down post-COVID, whereas your most basic e9 numbers are going up.

My observation is that all 3 series, 5 series, and 6 series BMW's have a glass ceiling that gets shattered after X number of years. Suddenly the market wakes up to these cars. It happened for e28's several years ago. The M6 happened years ago, but in the last year it has applied to 635's. The M635i was trailing but caught up. The e30 has always been widely popular, but now the e21 is getting the respect that it (IMO) deserves. While the e28 M5 has always been desirable, people are now paying much attention to the e34 M5. Clean e39 M5's are quickly going up in value as well. The e39 and e46 seem like the "current" last of the enthusiast BMW's, and basic models that aren't clapped out will raise in value.

What hasn't changed over time is the value of any 7 series BMW. They are the epitome of losing money after you leave the dealer. Any generation, it doesn't matter. The e23 was just arguably ugly. All models thereafter were overly complex. They were cheap and as a result, became beater cars for people who want a BMW. You can't find nice examples even if you try hard. When you do find one, you will be riddled with repair costs trying to overcome aging complexity.

Pah, I was just about to agree with everything you said, as usual, and then you start dissing my E38 .
I did have to look hard, but here is a nice 7er, albeit one that is parked in a vegetable patch!

Back on topic, I think 911s have come off the boil a bit over the past few years, on this side of the pond anyway, but that was after a few years of bumper porker price rises. A "correction" if you like. A 2.7 RS is worth a lot more than a CSL, always has

 

[Markos]

Pah, I was just about to agree with everything you said, as usual, and then you start dissing my E38 .
I did have to look hard, but here is a nice 7er, albeit one that is parked in a vegetable patch!
Back on topic, I think 911s have come off the boil a bit over the past few years, on this side of the pond anyway, but that was after a few years of bumper porker price rises. A "correction" if you like. A 2.7 RS is worth a lot more than a CSL, always has

Man I love the e38. So sexy!

 

[Gazz]

Well a kind of 911, the Beetle is climbing strongly here.
Beetles are undergoing major restorations at a similar expense to any car that goes in that direction and I fail to see why. They aren't so great to drive, there are millions of them, they're uncomfortable, impractical, sound like a broken washing machine and lack traffic presence in the age of towering SUVs.
There's a Beetle near me that has had $80,000 spent on it. It's painted beige!

 

[Wes]

I considered buying a Porsche 356 as a project and let it go as going to cost me 100k to drive something that handled like a Beetle..