A report from the Silicon Valley Trenches

[Dan Wood]

This is by far the best forum that I ever been associated with including aviation and other BMW forums.
I come here to learn and share. The technical knowledge, humor, and occational sarcasm is great.
However, political stuff belongs on Twitter or other social media.
Too many potential friendships have been lost due to politics.

 

[Gransin]

I’m not moderating this thread or OT, but I’ll respond as the Covid thread owner. The COVID thread was started in February 2020 when there was no pandemic, and zero political chatter around the subject of the virus. As a thread owner, I pleaded to keep it health related. As a moderator, I ultimately locked my own thread when members chose to selfishly dive into politics. It is one of the few if only threads that tracks a global event from inception to peak trauma/impact. There is still lasting impact, but again it was closed due to political nonsense.

I know, and I have nothing but respect for you as a friend, member and a moderator. You happened to start that thread but it could've been anybody, that wasn't the point.
The political nonsense started as soon as political talk was allowed in the thread, it got locked much much much later, and now we have a gift that just keeps on giving.

 

[x_atlas0]

I feel like I missed something, where's the 'political innuendo' in the original post? I read it as Arde's observations about Silicon Valley campuses, aside from the slight dig at Biden's State of the Union Address the end. After years of seeing arguing about politics turning more and more heated, Arde's comment barely registered. Heck, it was downright civil compared to the discourse I've seen elsewhere.

I'd like to think, given the average age, experience, and self-actualization of the people on the forum, most users aren't defined by their political affiliation, it's just a facet. Along those lines, given the highly polarized environment around any sort of controversial issue, I would actually find it stimulating to discuss topics of the day with people that aren't defined by their political parties. Having an interesting, engrossing, fact-driven discussion with people that can actually agree to disagree is a rare thing these days.

Arde, I worked for some of the established OEMs (Hyundai, Chrysler) and I can't tell you how angry Tesla makes me. The sheer leeway they have been given over existing companies drives me crazy. GM gets crucified because they didn't anticipate someone putting 10lbs of keychains on their ignition cylinder, while Tesla puts out vehicle software that can kill you if you aren't paying attention. (And you don't pay attention, because they have the gall to call it 'Autopilot', like it's a L5 system!) Shoot, the benchmark Model 3 I saw at FCA was so bad I could fit my hand between the driver window and the B-pillar with the door shut and the window up. It was hilariously bad.

 

[Arde]

@Arde, does Apple make any of their own chips anymore?

My info may be stale but they are fairly self sufficient on processors and interface chips, the hard stuff was radio modems where the gold standard was Qualcomm, and pretty hard to displace in practice and patent wise. Intel tried their luck on radio modems, not sure where that is at, others tried and cut their losses.

 

[Arde]

I feel like I missed something, where's the 'political innuendo' in the original post? I read it as Arde's observations about Silicon Valley campuses, aside from the slight dig at Biden's State of the Union Address the end. After years of seeing arguing about politics turning more and more heated, Arde's comment barely registered. Heck, it was downright civil compared to the discourse I've seen elsewhere.

I'd like to think, given the average age, experience, and self-actualization of the people on the forum, most users aren't defined by their political affiliation, it's just a facet. Along those lines, given the highly polarized environment around any sort of controversial issue, I would actually find it stimulating to discuss topics of the day with people that aren't defined by their political parties. Having an interesting, engrossing, fact-driven discussion with people that can actually agree to disagree is a rare thing these days.

Arde, I worked for some of the established OEMs (Hyundai, Chrysler) and I can't tell you how angry Tesla makes me. The sheer leeway they have been given over existing companies drives me crazy. GM gets crucified because they didn't anticipate someone putting 10lbs of keychains on their ignition cylinder, while Tesla puts out vehicle software that can kill you if you aren't paying attention. (And you don't pay attention, because they have the gall to call it 'Autopilot', like it's a L5 system!) Shoot, the benchmark Model 3 I saw at FCA was so bad I could fit my hand between the driver window and the B-pillar with the door shut and the window up. It was hilariously bad.

First thanks x_atlas for your balanced perspective, God knows I need it nowadays. The reason I did not reply to Markos on a timely way on the balloon is the emotional toll it is taking to see people attack any opinion I post, and without opinions what is the point of interacting? Just to exchange VIN numbers and wiring diagrams?
I swear I post my opinions and try not to read the board for a week in fear of what I will find.

Your anger at Tesla is very illuminating to me, naively I thought engineers would welcome such disruptors. I welcomed the critical mass Tesla brought to the battery supply chain, the fact that they broke the lock dealers had on direct brand stores, and, of course, the fact that a US company could compete locally and globally without subsidies. I agree with you on the Autopilot being a "bait and switch" at this time. I may have mentioned that my youngest son worked for Waymo essentially analyzing exceptions the algorithm encountered in pilots, and his view was in line with yours on the immaturity of the algorithms.

The key question I am trying to answer for my wife's Highway 17 commute is if (Autopilot + My wife) is better than My wife alone. Simple question. The answer is not obvious when you think about one of the best conclusions drawn by "Click and Clack" ever:

Do two people who don't know what they are talking about know more or less than one person who doesn't know what he's talking about?

As Read: The Andy Scale

Andy R. Marlboro, VT 05344 Dear Click and Clack, I am writing to offer profound thanks to you for resolving an important philosophical question that has been heatedly debated for the last twenty years. The rumination began on a construction site one summer in the early 1970's, as my friend Jamie...

www.cartalk.com

 

[bmw2800cs]

Hey @Arde I hope I didn't sound like I was attacking your opinion. If so I apologize, I appreciate your friendship and that wouldn't be the way to act to a friend. So let me take away the conditional apology and straight up apologize. I also didn't see where it got political but I didn't read the entire thread so I assumed it was somewhere in the thread that I hadn't read.

- Steve

 

[HB Chris]

@Arde To reduce the emotional toll you might consider not posting your political opinions, just a thought.

 

[dang]

A summary of "political talk" on the e9coupe forum.... It's usually extremely divisive so I personally chose to keep politics off the forum. Keep it about our cars, stay friends, etc. That was the case for quite a few years. COVID was a strange time in our lives, and when the topic came up here I felt like it needed to be talked about, BUT, only because the majority of the members here are way more mature than most other forums and I thought it could be talked about without getting personal. That's the problem with politics, it's always personal, so my mistake really.

I'll go back to not allowing anything political, which everyone seemed to be fine with for a long time. Please make it easier for me by not talking politics, and don't take it personal if I delete your comment or thread.

Dan

 

[cicada]

This is one of the most civil corners of the internet I've ever seen, though I haven't been here long. This forum is unique in the respect that members seem pretty comfortable talking about whatever. The camaraderie here is great.

I'd like to think, given the average age, experience, and self-actualization of the people on the forum, most users aren't defined by their political affiliation, it's just a facet. Along those lines, given the highly polarized environment around any sort of controversial issue, I would actually find it stimulating to discuss topics of the day with people that aren't defined by their political parties. Having an interesting, engrossing, fact-driven discussion with people that can actually agree to disagree is a rare thing these days.

I really appreciate this part of x_atlas's post, too. It seems many of the people here have had very interesting lives and are self-confident with decent theory of mind and still plenty of neuroplasticity. Or maybe it's the car to which the forum is dedicated that forces everyone to just be so zen about everything. Some other car forums are really hypersensitive about everything. And others, through years of entertaining certain viewpoints, eventually develop an intractable political subculture irrelevant to the car hobby that is off-putting to a lot of people who might otherwise contribute valuable things...

Debates and all that kind of thing about material political issues really ought to happen in private or in a venue that invites such a thing. Same goes for the real world, in my opinion. It's too bad that people in much of the Western world really wear their politics and other viewpoints on their sleeves now, having lost any kind of sense of propriety.

That said, I've enjoyed Arde's posts and perspectives that I've been around to read, and at least I don't notice any noxious political smell from what's written right here. It does stand to reason though that any time one is talking about something that isn't a purely technical matter, it becomes charged with opinion, from which all political thought stems. But if people on all sides have discretion, sense, and are able to separate the issue and perspective from the speaker, one in theory should be able to talk about anything with civility. But on an internet forum it is very difficult, or even impossible to truly "read the room" and conduct oneself truly how one should.

 

[CSteve]

Casting my vote, again, "for not posting anything political." Thank you Dan.

 

[x_atlas0]

Your anger at Tesla is very illuminating to me, naively I thought engineers would welcome such disruptors. I welcomed the critical mass Tesla brought to the battery supply chain, the fact that they broke the lock dealers had on direct brand stores, and, of course, the fact that a US company could compete locally and globally without subsidies. I agree with you on the Autopilot being a "bait and switch" at this time. I may have mentioned that my youngest son worked for Waymo essentially analyzing exceptions the algorithm encountered in pilots, and his view was in line with yours on the immaturity of the algorithms.

I'm all for interesting and novel applications of technology, what grinds my gears is the double standards, as it lets Tesla be bad while demanding the OEMs never set a toe out of line and become more and more profitable every quarter. That's very hard to do when you are making something new. Goodness knows cars have been basically supplier-driven since the 80s, with a few exceptions, probably because all the OEMs sundowned any sort of actual blue-sky research at the altar of quarterly gains. Heck, I was actually thinking of joining Tesla when I graduated back in 2007, since I had a few friends join up. Back then it was based in Michigan and the core team built the Roadster. Then Musk fired them over Facebook (at the time, he was the background money, not involved in the engineering) and moved the shop to Cali, so I felt I dodged a bullet.

'Without Subsidies'? They got half a billion from the Fed back in 2008, and the government subsidized every vehicle they made to the tune of 7500$ for the first 200,000 units. Plus, last time I checked, the only way they have been profitable is with carbon credits from other companies. Last time I looked, that accounted for >1 billion in revenue for them annually. That money only exists because of the government demanding OEMs meet CAFE/Fleet targets. Personally, I think the goal is good, but the implementation picks winners and losers for types of cars and technologies, hence the elimination of most sedans on the market and the proliferation of SUVs.

(Subsidy data examples:
1. https://www.grid.news/story/technol...k-hates-the-government-his-companies-love-it/
2. https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc
3. https://www.businessinsider.com/elo...idies-tesla-billions-spacex-solarcity-2021-12)

I actually like how they took a clean-sheet approach to the car, because such a thing was unheard of at the base OEMs, they didn't want to have to re-invent the wheel. The old OEMs are absurdly risk-averse. I applaud their efforts to improve system integration by using more modular compute units. I don't like how they keep making dumb mistakes because they threw out the old-school knowledge from the OEMs just because it was old, not because it was wrong. I work with a bunch of ex-Tesla folks and the stories they told are alarming, to say the least. I also like the elimination of the dealer model.

However, I feel like I'm getting off on a tangent here. I find it interesting how the Tech boom/bust cycle has manifested this time, and how many people have been caught unawares. Lots of empty desks and offices. On the flip side though, I have also seen an explosion of roles with dubious business justification, so perhaps things are balancing out?

 

[craterface]

I don't mind talking politics with anyone, but it goes much better when it is face-to-face. Hope to see all of you guys at Legends this year (work interfered last year).

Having owned two Teslas, I can say the Model S was a remarkable, breakthrough product, the Model Y less so. It's pretty cheaply made and the steering overly light and numb, but it has been reliable and my wife likes it, so that's what matters. Happy wife and all that. And we need a battery solution other than lithium ion. Soon.

 

[Ohmess]

I don't mind talking politics with anyone, but it goes much better when it is face-to-face. Hope to see all of you guys at Legends this year (work interfered last year).

Having owned two Teslas, I can say the Model S was a remarkable, breakthrough product, the Model Y less so. It's pretty cheaply made and the steering overly light and numb, but it has been reliable and my wife likes it, so that's what matters. Happy wife and all that. And we need a battery solution other than lithium ion. Soon.

Scott - I believe Legends East is not going to be at Hilton Head this year.

If you can make it, several of us are going to Sharkfest in Chattanooga at the end of April. https://e9coupe.com/forum/threads/sharkfest-baby.42531/post-372443

 

[Dick Steinkamp]

... the steering overly light and numb, ...

This worked for me. Go to the main menu, then pedals and steering, you'll have 3 choices for steering sensitivity (sport, standard, comfort). Select Comfort. Counterintuitive, but gave the most solid feel. Not as "twitchy".