BaT's explanation of "Dealer" vs "Private Party" sale

[Dick Steinkamp]

I emailed Bat the following to try to understand why so many consignment sales by dealers were labeled "Private Party Sale" by Bat. This was precipitated by the recent BaT auctions of the E3 3.0Si and the E9 CSL

BaT,
I'm a long time BaTer...since 2011, before it was even an auction site. I've thoroughly enjoyed it almost every day for the past 12 years. A truly excellent concept and an even better execution. I have sold a few cars using BaT. The process to sell was well defined and documented. My auction specialists were always helpful and kept in constant contact with me throughout the submission process and the auction itself. BaT has been a great source of entertainment for me over the years.

I have one suggestion. There seem to be more and more consignment auctions that are identified as "Private Party" auctions. Some state in the listing "selling on behalf of the owner", but not all. Sometimes it comes out in the conversation, sometimes it remains unknown. Here are two recent examples...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-bmw-3-3li/

https://e9coupe.com/forum/threads/1974-3-0csl-on-bat.44154/

I think the use of the term Private Party for these is not open and honest. It leads potential buyers to believe that the owner drafted the description and will be answering the questions and addressing potential buyer concerns. A dealer is a dealer no matter if he holds the title or not. In fact, there are probably more consignment dealers in the collector car market than dealers who are on the title.

Thanks for considering this change. I think it would help show that BaT always does the right thing.

This was BaT's response...

Hi Dick,

Appreciate you reaching out to share this feedback. It's always great to hear from longtime BaT followers like yourself and we're glad to hear that you've had good selling experiences on the site.

To clarify, a private party designation in the essentials box is simply meant to indicate that the vehicle in question is being sold/handled as a literal private party transaction. Keep in mind that anyone can sell as a private party (even a dealership) as long as they have the vehicle titled in their name (or in the name of their business). That said, anyone selling as a private party must have the appropriate documentation to do so, and we do require them to provide legal documentation that shows that the vehicle is titled in their (or their business's) name. As with any private party transaction, we also require that the post auction payment be made directly to the titleholder - this is especially important for circumstances in which a seller is listing a vehicle on behalf of the owner, and if that is the case, it's typically something we call out in the first paragraph.

While the laws and regulations vary slightly from state to state, dealers, however, generally have the ability to sell a vehicle (and accept payment for a vehicle) without having to title the vehicle in their (or their business's) name. Ownership is usually transferred by something called a "dealer reassignment form". If a seller is selling as a dealer, they must clearly indicate that they are doing so and they also must present a valid retail dealer's license - we generally do not allow dealers to sell on a wholesale dealer's license.

With all of that in mind, we always encourage bidders to contact sellers with any specific questions regarding the title status, payment details, or specific ownership questions. As a car enthusiast like yourself knows, ownership history is a really important consideration before buying any vehicle, so it's important that bidders establish a level of comfort prior to bidding.

I hope this helps shed some light on our approach here, but thanks again for sharing your concerns and we appreciate the continued support!

Best Regards,

So, I'm a little confused (as usual).

It seems that BaT explained why dealers that are on the title to the vehicle can list it as a private party sale...and maybe also those whose states allow the use of a "dealer reassignment form?" This isn't what I asked and raises even more red flags for me.

It doesn't explain why a dealers that have been consigned cars by an owner to sell also often list them as Private Party Sales.

I need some help understanding BaT's answer, and responding in a way that from a hobbiest standpoint, a dealer is a dealer is a dealer.

Thanks!

 

[BMW Pete]

This answer is legal gobbledegook intended to do exactly what it has done, confuse the matters. It certainly doesn't answer your question.

For my two pennies, I just banged this down quickly, didn't even spell check and my thoughts are probably incoherent, but it is a Friday night and the boss (wife) is like - its Friday night? so use what you want and throw away what doesn't suit, if anything suits that is

................................

Thank you for your answer, but with respect it dodges the very clear issue at hand, namely the difference between a dealer and a private seller or in fact, the most important issue of transparency on your site.

When you buy a car do you make different assumptions when you are dealing with a private party or a dealer? In that same vein, does the law protect you differently when you buy from a dealer as against a private party ?

So if I take you argument on different states rules, as it somehow gives a pass to these people selling large numbers of cars on your site every year, some selling one or two or more every single week.I cannot claim to know the law in every state in the union, but I do have an understanding of most of the states where many of these large volume sellers reside and we both know they do not reside in Montana. But lets forget that, most states in the union, certainly the largest populous and car ownership areas have very simple rules ie you sell x amount of cars a year, you are a dealer and should be registered as one.

Your stance on this issues disadvantages buyers in many ways, firstly as mentioned, laws a dealer has to adhere to in most if not all states. Transparency should be obvious, but I hope whether you agree with my argument or not, transparency and in turn honesty are important and what BAT was built on.

It also disadvantages the honest dealers who declare who they are and are therefore held to a different standard by their state agencies.

It would be very simple for you to have a number of your own and should somebody surpass that number in a given period, then said dealers name appears in a different color, say blue when their name appears either selling and commenting. it could even be that they are top recognized seller because they sell more than five or ten cars per year, giving some credibility to their standing in the community.

I am a simple passionate car and BAT fan, like many I want to see you succeed, so while my voice is a single one in this conversation, I hope you can recognize this is an issue that is better dealt with up front, (maybe before some state agency comes in and dictates how it will be done) and dare I say would be a great marketing play for the fairness and transparency of the BAT we all love




.............................................................................................................

Ok, hopefully a better mind than this school drop outs comes in and makes this work

 

[rsporsche]

Dick, thank you for taking the time to question BaT ... i for one think there is a lot of merit in what you have written Pete ... and i concur that there response does nothing but confuse the issue without answering the basic question.

 

[howS]

The answer is just what you stated. The laws in every state are different so there is no blanket policy to cover every kind of sale on BAT. I am a dealer, I have sold hundreds of cars on BAT. About 50% of the cars I sell there are my own, meaning I purchased them, I recon'd them and I am selling them as my own dealership. The other 50% are a mix of consignments from other dealers or private individuals. BaT has my dealers license on file. On cars I run for other dealers, they require a copy of their dealers license in addition to already having mine on file. In those cases I rep the car on BAT but the paperwork and actual sale is handled by the dealer who I represent the car for. I also inspect each car prior to the listing to make sure it meets my standards and to make sure I am clear on everything I need to know about the cars condition and history. I am not an expert of every make and model out there. That great thing about BaT is there always is a real expert willing to help in a positive way. On the cars I take on consignment from private individuals, assuming they meet reserve and sell, I then have the consignee sign the car over to my dealership and then I technically sell the car to the auction winner. On occasion I will act only as a facilitator, so in those cases the sale is technically between my client and the buyer. Most of my private individual clients, don't want to deal with paperwork or shipping so they opt to sign the car over to me, assuming the car sells. I don't take title possession of the car unless it sells, simply because if it doesnt, then I have to reassign the car to the owner and that can result in a tax situation. There is no easy answer. I suggest that if you're a buyer on BaT and this issue concerns you, then you simply ask during the auction. People do it all the time. I am very selective in the cars I take on consignment and the people whose cars I elect to take on consignment.

When you're buying on BaT the seller matters. There are certain risks involved with buying on BaT. People ask me all the time and I tell them.... Make sure you ask a lot of questions, try to go see the car, or arrange for someone to see the car, or arrange to have a PPI done on the car before the end of the auction. The seller matters. There are a number of high-volume sellers on BaT I would never buy a car from. I lose cars to them all the time in the wholesale market or from private individuals. I cringe at seeing some of those cars on BaT because I know the car and I know what it would have needed in recon for me to sell it, and I can see they don't bother with it. Just like outside of BaT, you can buy a car from some garbage BHPH lot or some shlocky used car lot, or you can buy a car from a well-established used car seller who has a reputation. In the hundreds of cars I have sold on BaT only 4 times have I had an issue with the buyer that was serious enough for me to go see the buyer and work out a solution. I don't care if I have to fly across the country or have someone I know and trust go see the issue, I will make sure it gets looked at and a fair solution worked out. Now thats not to say I haven’t had a couple of others complain, thats the nature of the business and for some buyers it’s a game to see what they can get. The buyers can be just as bad as some of the sellers. One thing I always do, is at the first sign of a question, I immediately inform BaT and keep them in the loop by documenting every interaction with the buyer and passing it along to BaT. I have also gone out of my way to help out buyers. Within the last two months, I had a buyer admit he didn't have all the cash for the purchase at the time of purchase. I worked with him to allow him to pay me in three installments over 5 weeks’ time. No interest no hassle, we drew up a contract and a schedule (my wife is an attorney) and we worked it out. He was very grateful, as he really wanted the car, I was happy to help him out, he seemed like a good guy.

Anyone who thinks its easy to sell cars on BaT and do it the right way, has not sold many cars on BaT. I put a huge amount of work into every listing, and I am very mindful of my reputation. This is how I make my living; I am not getting rich doing this, this is something I have a passion for. I take a lot of pride in the listings I present on BaT, it’s not some game for me and the guys like me. I walked away from a career that paid many times what I make doing this to pursue my passion, and I am fiercely protective of my business. I only sell my cars on BaT, with an occasional car on another auction site or through word of mouth / referral / established client. I don't advertise anywhere; I don't even have a website. I do a lot of the recon myself, I have other vendors who are not the cheapest but they're the best around at what they do. It takes me weeks and sometimes months to prepare a car for BaT. @bruce_m was my decades long friend and I joined up with him 7 or 8 years ago when he started on BaT. He was a BaT and a Benz legend before his passing in 2020. People from all over the world would contact him and consult with him on a v12 Benz purchase. My right-hand man who did the same for Bruce, is a 23 year certified Benz tech who is a master tech for v12 and diesel Benz cars. He goes through every one of those I sell and all of the other Benz's I sell. You don't get that from those garbage sellers on BaT. Many of the Benz's I pass on end up being listed by crap sellers.

In conclusion, I understand where you're coming from with some of the questions about dealer vs. private individual, there is nothing wrong with that. There is no easy answer. Know the reputation of whose car you are bidding on, ask a lot of good questions, try and see the car or have someone see the car. Understand that "perfect" is a myth and it doesn't exist.

Thanks.

Oh, one last thing..... I list every single car I sell as Dealer

 

[uter]

In a state like mine, Arizona, the issue of private versus dealer is significant, as private party sales are exempt from being taxed.

 

[Dick Steinkamp]

In a state like mine, Arizona, the issue of private versus dealer is significant, as private party sales are exempt from being taxed.

When buying a vehicle in Arizona, you’ll pay 5.6% of the vehicle’s purchase price, whether you purchase from a private seller or a car dealer. Arizona's tax law does not discriminate between the two.

How Much are Used Car Sales Taxes in Arizona? | PrivateAuto | PrivateAuto

Want to buy a used car in Arizona for a great price? You don't owe AZ sales tax when you buy from a private seller—but you will owe other

privateauto.com

I think the difference may be that if you buy from a dealer, the dealer will collect the sales tax but if you buy from a private party, you will pay the sales tax directly to the state when you register the car,

 

[Dick Steinkamp]

@howS
Thanks for your detailed post!

I like your last sentence...

I list every single car I sell as Dealer

I think all I am asking BaT to do is to insure other dealers do the same. Buyers can dig for that distinction, but it just seems more honest and transparent for both the dealer and BaT to do as you do.

Continued success with your business!

( howS currently has 6 cars listed on BaT https://bringatrailer.com/member/hows/ )

 

[HB Chris]

The answer is just what you stated. The laws in every state are different so there is no blanket policy to cover every kind of sale on BAT. I am a dealer, I have sold hundreds of cars on BAT. About 50% of the cars I sell there are my own, meaning I purchased them, I recon'd them and I am selling them as my own dealership. The other 50% are a mix of consignments from other dealers or private individuals. BaT has my dealers license on file. On cars I run for other dealers, they require a copy of their dealers license in addition to already having mine on file. In those cases I rep the car on BAT but the paperwork and actual sale is handled by the dealer who I represent the car for. I also inspect each car prior to the listing to make sure it meets my standards and to make sure I am clear on everything I need to know about the cars condition and history. I am not an expert of every make and model out there. That great thing about BaT is there always is a real expert willing to help in a positive way. On the cars I take on consignment from private individuals, assuming they meet reserve and sell, I then have the consignee sign the car over to my dealership and then I technically sell the car to the auction winner. On occasion I will act only as a facilitator, so in those cases the sale is technically between my client and the buyer. Most of my private individual clients, don't want to deal with paperwork or shipping so they opt to sign the car over to me, assuming the car sells. I don't take title possession of the car unless it sells, simply because if it doesnt, then I have to reassign the car to the owner and that can result in a tax situation. There is no easy answer. I suggest that if you're a buyer on BaT and this issue concerns you, then you simply ask during the auction. People do it all the time. I am very selective in the cars I take on consignment and the people whose cars I elect to take on consignment.

When you're buying on BaT the seller matters. There are certain risks involved with buying on BaT. People ask me all the time and I tell them.... Make sure you ask a lot of questions, try to go see the car, or arrange for someone to see the car, or arrange to have a PPI done on the car before the end of the auction. The seller matters. There are a number of high-volume sellers on BaT I would never buy a car from. I lose cars to them all the time in the wholesale market or from private individuals. I cringe at seeing some of those cars on BaT because I know the car and I know what it would have needed in recon for me to sell it, and I can see they don't bother with it. Just like outside of BaT, you can buy a car from some garbage BHPH lot or some shlocky used car lot, or you can buy a car from a well-established used car seller who has a reputation. In the hundreds of cars I have sold on BaT only 4 times have I had an issue with the buyer that was serious enough for me to go see the buyer and work out a solution. I don't care if I have to fly across the country or have someone I know and trust go see the issue, I will make sure it gets looked at and a fair solution worked out. Now thats not to say I haven’t had a couple of others complain, thats the nature of the business and for some buyers it’s a game to see what they can get. The buyers can be just as bad as some of the sellers. One thing I always do, is at the first sign of a question, I immediately inform BaT and keep them in the loop by documenting every interaction with the buyer and passing it along to BaT. I have also gone out of my way to help out buyers. Within the last two months, I had a buyer admit he didn't have all the cash for the purchase at the time of purchase. I worked with him to allow him to pay me in three installments over 5 weeks’ time. No interest no hassle, we drew up a contract and a schedule (my wife is an attorney) and we worked it out. He was very grateful, as he really wanted the car, I was happy to help him out, he seemed like a good guy.

Anyone who thinks its easy to sell cars on BaT and do it the right way, has not sold many cars on BaT. I put a huge amount of work into every listing, and I am very mindful of my reputation. This is how I make my living; I am not getting rich doing this, this is something I have a passion for. I take a lot of pride in the listings I present on BaT, it’s not some game for me and the guys like me. I walked away from a career that paid many times what I make doing this to pursue my passion, and I am fiercely protective of my business. I only sell my cars on BaT, with an occasional car on another auction site or through word of mouth / referral / established client. I don't advertise anywhere; I don't even have a website. I do a lot of the recon myself, I have other vendors who are not the cheapest but they're the best around at what they do. It takes me weeks and sometimes months to prepare a car for BaT. @bruce_m was my decades long friend and I joined up with him 7 or 8 years ago when he started on BaT. He was a BaT and a Benz legend before his passing in 2020. People from all over the world would contact him and consult with him on a v12 Benz purchase. My right-hand man who did the same for Bruce, is a 23 year certified Benz tech who is a master tech for v12 and diesel Benz cars. He goes through every one of those I sell and all of the other Benz's I sell. You don't get that from those garbage sellers on BaT. Many of the Benz's I pass on end up being listed by crap sellers.

In conclusion, I understand where you're coming from with some of the questions about dealer vs. private individual, there is nothing wrong with that. There is no easy answer. Know the reputation of whose car you are bidding on, ask a lot of good questions, try and see the car or have someone see the car. Understand that "perfect" is a myth and it doesn't exist.

Thanks.

Oh, one last thing..... I list every single car I sell as Dealer

Thank you for taking the time to explain how you operate, it is incredibly informative. Sellers like you are few and far between.

 

[howS]

@howS
Thanks for your detailed post!

I like your last sentence...

I list every single car I sell as Dealer

I think all I am asking BaT to do is to insure other dealers do the same. Buyers can dig for that distinction, but it just seems more honest and transparent for both the dealer and BaT to do as you do.

Continued success with your business!

( howS currently has 6 cars listed on BaT https://bringatrailer.com/member/hows/ )

I understand your point. I don't speak for BaT and obviously I'm a huge supporter of the platform, but my sense is that the more they narrow things down the more open to risk they become. I think they strike a nice balance and if that's an issue for you as a buyer then you can simply ask for clarification from the seller during the auction.

 

[wkohler]

When buying a vehicle in Arizona, you’ll pay 5.6% of the vehicle’s purchase price, whether you purchase from a private seller or a car dealer. Arizona's tax law does not discriminate between the two.

How Much are Used Car Sales Taxes in Arizona? | PrivateAuto | PrivateAuto

Want to buy a used car in Arizona for a great price? You don't owe AZ sales tax when you buy from a private seller—but you will owe other

privateauto.com

I think the difference may be that if you buy from a dealer, the dealer will collect the sales tax but if you buy from a private party, you will pay the sales tax directly to the state when you register the car,

As someone who lives in Arizona and has a double digit number of cars registered in the state of Arizona, when I go to the MVD with a title from a private seller they don’t care what I pay for a car. The question is never asked. The vehicle license tax is based on the MSRP of the vehicle when new and after so many years, it bottoms out. If you buy a car from a dealer, you have to pay sales tax on the sale even if it was not sold by a dealer in Arizona. New or used, doesn’t matter.

 

[BMW Pete]

Hi @howS

Thank you for well thought out contribution, you sound like a good dealer. You put in the time and effort to do a stellar job and most importantly you correct identify yourself as a dealer, thank you for that.

Nobody imagines its easy selling on BAT, in fact I think everybody here agrees it is not, you have to open your Kimono wide and stand there while people inspect your every pimple Then dealing with the peanut gallery 'look at me crowd" and their silly questions, which you have no choice but to answer, definitely not easy.

That said, I do not think the issue is complicated at all. A dealer is a dealer pure and simple, if you make a profit out of selling cars, no matter your own, in your name, on consignment, with a Montana title, etc, etc etc, then its simple, you deal in cars and are therefore are a car dealer.

There are some things you shouldn't need to ask, we shouldn't have to ask the question "why are you not posting as a dealer" in fact I have seen it asked and immediately its flagged as no constructive and disappears.

I tell a story many years ago (kinda funny now with the passage of time) of one person I knew who bought a car from somebody else he knew, before the internet, he asked as many questions as possible and then bought the car, when the car arrived it did not have any windows, literally no glass, when he called the seller, the seller said "you didn't ask if it had windows"

Now of course the internet, videos etc, help stop that extreme example, but I hope my point is made, there are just some things you should not have to ask.

 

[Keshav]

you have to open your Kimono wide and stand there while people inspect your every pimple Then dealing with the peanut gallery 'look at me crowd" and their silly questions, which you have no choice but to answer, definitely not easy.

And 95% weren't even CSL savvy as in the case of 2275526, just drum beaters!

 

[Arde]

...

Anyone who thinks its easy to sell cars on BaT and do it the right way, has not sold many cars on BaT. I put a huge amount of work into every listing, and I am very mindful of my reputation. This is how I make my living; I am not getting rich doing this, this is something I have a passion for.

Very informative post, perhaps the 7 words I bolded above are a simple definition of a dealer...

 

[howS]

I have Arizona residents ask me all the time through BaT if the car I have listed is already titled in my dealerships name or the consignors name or the previous owners name. I have heard from them many times that they don't pay tax on a used car thats purchased from a private seller. I don't know whether that's correct or not, I am just noting that I get that frequently from AZ bidders on BaT.

 

[howS]

Hi @howS

Thank you for well thought out contribution, you sound like a good dealer. You put in the time and effort to do a stellar job and most importantly you correct identify yourself as a dealer, thank you for that.

Nobody imagines its easy selling on BAT, in fact I think everybody here agrees it is not, you have to open your Kimono wide and stand there while people inspect your every pimple Then dealing with the peanut gallery 'look at me crowd" and their silly questions, which you have no choice but to answer, definitely not easy.

That said, I do not think the issue is complicated at all. A dealer is a dealer pure and simple, if you make a profit out of selling cars, no matter your own, in your name, on consignment, with a Montana title, etc, etc etc, then its simple, you deal in cars and are therefore are a car dealer.

There are some things you shouldn't need to ask, we shouldn't have to ask the question "why are you not posting as a dealer" in fact I have seen it asked and immediately its flagged as no constructive and disappears.

I tell a story many years ago (kinda funny now with the passage of time) of one person I knew who bought a car from somebody else he knew, before the internet, he asked as many questions as possible and then bought the car, when the car arrived it did not have any windows, literally no glass, when he called the seller, the seller said "you didn't ask if it had windows"

Now of course the internet, videos etc, help stop that extreme example, but I hope my point is made, there are just some things you should not have to ask.

It's not always that simple. As I mentioned the laws in different states are very different. At least that's the way I see it. Also, as I said earlier, and this is just my opinion, I have no influence on the rules of BaT... I don't think BaT itself likes to narrow any definition because the rules are different around the country and because they would box themselves into a corner (BAT) and create potential legal issues for themselves. I don't see the difficultly in asking for a clarification from the seller if someone has a question, but if you do that's okay with me, I respect that.

 

[howS]

And 95% weren't even CSL savvy as in the case of 2275526, just drum beaters!

.....

 

[BMW Pete]

And 95% weren't even CSL savvy as in the case of 2275526, just drum beaters!

Yes, Keshav the drum beaters are also another issue that would be answered by identification as a dealer, as most are other dealers, maybe as I mention above with some kind of different color on their comments.

I realize I am talking as a potential buyer and or a simple member of this E9 community and in turn the BAT community, but with of course respect to you HowS, you are of course commenting as a dealer, so while I respect your opinion, I feel like the BAT answer, you are answering as BAT would, as the people who have a vested interest in not changing what is working well for "them" and I say them, because I dont feel (maybe just me) it works for the punters/buyers interest, you feel different and thats fine.

@Keshav speaks of something else that has become rather disingenuous on BAT and was shown loud and clear on the Batmobile sale and is happening more and more on many others.

That is dealers constantly pumping up each others cars, cars they cannot possibly know and sellers they may not know beyond "if I support him he will support me" as soon as there is a comment thats not liked its "all hands on deck" to support fellow dealer. Does that help the community? Yes it helps you sell, but buyers ? Yes, of course, if we all know somebody personally, a friend and they are selling a car on BAT, we can all make supportive comments "if warranted" and if we like, but the constant - every time they sell a car - dealer support network, has absolutely nothing to do with anything but pumping up the sale.

Let's talk about negativity, I agree I always try to say positive things about a car or not say anything if possible and I apologize for comment here now simply to make a point (thankfully its a discussion away from the chassis number) that car could have easily been buried in negative comments by the people that understand E9s and especially CSL's, many of them on this site who did comment on BAT, did so politely and oh so lightly, still the sellers "friends" couldn't live with that tiny and I mean tiny amount of bad compared to what could have easily been said. Somebody may ask a question that the buyer goes "oh crap" but its not a negative, its simply a question but because the dealer doesn't like it, out come the "XYZ is such a great guy and look at the quality pictures and video blah blah blah" often drowning out what may have been a valuable question. So I dint think the "good is taken with the bad" for dealers, yes it's true for true private punters, they unfortunately live with being a true "private" seller and the lack of back slapping

Again, using the Batmobile as an example, without comments from this community there were some 385 pictures originally on the post, not one off them showed any area that an E9 buyer would look at first (well actually just one of them, which was not a clear picture - engine stamping), only after comments from people on here were those photos revealed, with the normal negative comments from other dealers about the E9 mob etc, trying to drown out what was extremely important information.

To be clear, you are all making money on this ferris wheel at the moment and who can blame you for that, congratulations sir (damn I hope you are a bloke), take it while you can, enjoy it while you can and I hope you continue to grow what sounds like an honorable business. Some and I include you in this HowS are already doing what is being asked, what is being asked for is transparency and honesty and if that is objectionable to dealers, yet a positive for buyers, I think that makes our case.

Very obviously, we are coming from two different sides here, I absolutely understand where you are coming from, I get it, but I can't agree with it when the question is honesty and transparency.

I am glad you like this site and have found positive information here, and even though we will be a little bit more honest here, unless a car is an absolute pig with lipstick on, the E9s will always be kinder than the average Porsche forum

Enjoy your Sunday

 

[howS]

....

 

[BMW Pete]

@howS enjoy the game, both of them.

The question and the heading of the post asks a simple question - is somebody a dealer or a private seller?

Honesty and transparency, thats all that is being asked

Now go have fun

P.S absolutely nothing wrong with you guys all supporting each other, go ahead have fun, but let the punters know it is not an "impartial" comment and all is good.

 

[wkohler]

Nice to be able to see the different perspectives on this topic in a civil discussion. I have my own criticisms that haven’t been discussed, chiefly the anonymity, but I do think there’s a lot of positive there compared to the negative especially when compared to the “brick and mortar” auction houses for lack of a better term. BaT created a segment and I think compared to the also-rans, they have done a better job dealing with the issues that crop up. As with anything, there’s always a learning process.

I think the point about BaT keeping things vague to protect their position is spot on and they use the same approach in their descriptions, sometimes working so hard to not make an assertion that the description actually becomes inaccurate.

I do my fair share of commenting and try to keep it limited to things I have direct experience with (I’m happy to comment about the stamp on a block, but refrained from going into any CSL minutiae, but I can get really specific on an E28 M5 if it comes to it). I think the comments are really the best thing BaT has going for it as it polices itself.

Sometimes one of the things that’s frustrating is when someone consigns a car to a dealer and during that auction, the owner of the car is commenting about what a tremendous car it is as though they’re an impartial third party. This is something that only I’d know because they use the same handle on BaT as they do on a forum or in one E28 auction, the owner had sold an E21 they got with the E28 on their own account and had a very popular BaT seller sell the E28 for him. That particular car went for significant money. Whether or not the seller knew, I can’t say but it’s one of those things. Of course it can go the other way where a member spends 6.5 days tearing the car apart and ends up the high bidder at the end.

One thing I have noticed is that when a particular seller has a car on offer, it can be a big help to that car, not unlike when a handler at a dog show shows a dog, a judge will likely assume it is a pretty high end specimen. There’s a feeling that a significant amount of vetting has already been done and this seller isn’t going to bring a turd to auction. Also, people that sell a lot of stuff on BaT know what photos are needed, videos, etc. You get clear undercarriage photos often. I think the presentation is one of the hardest things for an individual to do. Go back and look at listings from 2014 and look at today.

I think if BaT wanted to do anything, they could make it very clear (more than they already do by working into the description) that this car is a private seller selling their own car, a dealer selling a car they own or a dealer or an individual selling a car on consignment and that the titled owner would be the party being paid. I don’t know how much that would clear it up as they put in a description for a current listing that a car had the last mileage reading on a carfax from 2022 that was higher than the current mileage on the odometer and someone asked what that meant. Someone will always be confused.

I have sold 3 cars on BaT, two for other people. I have an E23 showing up today that I’ll be listing for a friend. I said I have to have the car in my possession to sell it. It’s not my job but it’s a small component of a service I offer my customers. I take the specifications from the customers and bring it to the engineers. Kidding, of course. I handle photographing and presenting the car, crafting the description with the auction specialist and running the auction. My reputation is on the line so I’m really picky (I prefer two-tone E28s with big stereos) and I’ll only put something up I know well and I do it infrequently as it’s a lot of work. I don’t think I should be labeled a dealer but I make it a point to explain it’s not my own car. That still gets confused by some when I promote the listing on various platforms.

I think confusion comes into play when a car is imported for sale on consignment and the import paperwork says the name of the importer (seller) as an owner, then is titled in the sellers name as an owner. I may be making a lot of assumptions but it simplifies the process and is also cheaper to do that way. I guess in the grand scheme of things, how much does it matter to the buyer whose name was on the US title they received that they can take to their licensing agency and get put into their name, and I’m sure if they live in AZ or title their cars here, they’re thrilled they don’t have to pay sales tax as they would if they bought it from a licensed and bonded dealer.