BMW E9 3.2/3.5 Turbo Hartge Cabrio? VIN 2211619

[Angelitomcfly]

Hello everyone from Spain, I am Ángel, and I suppose like all of you a fan of vehicles. I'm not sure where to post this presentation / speech thread, but here I go. I am interested in acquiring what is supposed to be a bmw e9, but the current owner does not have any information or documentation on the car. I am somewhat lost, as far as I know it is a bmw e9 cabrio 3.5 turbo engine, (the engine starts). It has Hartge logos (I don't know if it's real). Attached photos of his current state of the car. If someone can guide me a little I would appreciate it, I await an answer. Thanks and best regards.

 

[CSteve]

You have come to the right place. But I will leave it to others to evaluate this car. At one time it must have been the great love of someone. So sad.

 

[Arde]

It is indeed a BMW E9, and an interesting car.

 

[Markos]

Greetings!

It’s definitely a euro 3.0CS VIN. BMW didn’t offer cabrios or turbo e9’s. This is a custom job. My guess is that it was done in the 90’s and sold in the 2000’s. The radio is from 2007. Pretty amazing that it runs given the visible hodgepodge nature of the drivetrain, visible butt splice connectors, etc. I don’t see any evidence that Hartge had anything to do with this car. I bet it had Hartge wheels that were purchased from the wrecker though.

There is a power window switch to the left of the steering column. That is presumably for the top.

Not much love for cabrio conversions here. If you can get it for a cheap it could be fun to tool around with. If the breaker things they have something special, I assure you they do not.





(Not a carb CSL).

 

[tferrer]

It woud be interesting to know more about the drive train and chassis mods. Someone obviously put alot of money into it at one time so I think it would be interesting what some digging would uncover. That turbo drive-train would be fun in a coupe..

 

[dave v. in nc]

You have an excellent source of knowledge there in Spain, who is known on this forum as @deQuincey. If he is near you in Spain (I think he is in Bilbao), he would be the best source to help you make a decision, and perhaps help with suggestions and other information. Hopefully, he will see your post and reach out to you.

It is an e9, and that makes it a special car. It was once a special e9. Markos is correct that most people love the design of the e9 as a coupe, but when some of the parts are removed, not as much. I know it is dry mostly in Spain, but the car interior has already suffered a lot of damage (seats appear to be at low tide currently), and rust is always a fear with these cars, so it needs to be inside, out of the elements. We would all love to see this car saved, but it will require mucho dinero, time, and patience. Best of luck.

 

[bavaria]

It looks like someone put a 745i motor in it. It appears to be the earlier version.

 

[Angelitomcfly]

Thank you all for your comments. Yes, the car has rust and corrosion almost everywhere. I know that it was and is a special car that has to get back on the road, if not for me by someone else but it will be done. The first thing that surprised me was to see ventilated discs back and forth and when I opened the hood the turbo. Dave yeah, text deQuincy to talk to him about it.

 

[Angelitomcfly]

Yes bavaria, I think it has the engine of an e23 735i, but I don't know which gearbox

 

[deQuincey]

You have an excellent source of knowledge there in Spain, who is known on this forum as @deQuincey. If he is near you in Spain (I think he is in Bilbao), he would be the best source to help you make a decision, and perhaps help with suggestions and other information. Hopefully, he will see your post and reach out to you.

It is an e9, and that makes it a special car. It was once a special e9. Markos is correct that most people love the design of the e9 as a coupe, but when some of the parts are removed, not as much. I know it is dry mostly in Spain, but the car interior has already suffered a lot of damage (seats appear to be at low tide currently), and rust is always a fear with these cars, so it needs to be inside, out of the elements. We would all love to see this car saved, but it will require mucho dinero, time, and patience. Best of luck.

thank you Dave,

 

[deQuincey]

welcome angel,

it's an interesting car
despite the terrible condition that can be told from pictures

There are many ways to approach a classic car, some value subjective aspects, others originality, others exclusivity, others rarity

I think this car might fall into this last type

bmw never made an e9 cabrio, well let's face it, apparently karmann made one, presented it to bmw and they rejected it

purists say that a convertible spoils the greatest aesthetic value of an e9, which is the fabulous C-pillar, this might be the most beautiful C-pillar from bmw

There is however a curious fact with the e9 cabrios, many were manufactured independently, and why? Well, because back in the day Spain, and maybe other countries, established strong restrictions on the number of e9s to be imported per year, and because when a car is transformed by a bodybuilder it is no more a bmw, it becomes a car made by that bodybuilder, with which the quota is saved and could be imported, some years ago i was involved in a trade of such a car

in terms of originality an e9 cabrio is not very original

the engine configuration is a bit unexpected, at least I had not seen that configuration before,

I am struck by the delco, huge, and the apparent TDZ transistorzundung ignition box placed on the pole that holds the turbo, I do not know the configuration of the turbo, nor the type of injection involved

It would be necessary to open the engine to know the camshaft, the pistons, ...

the hartge emblems are difficult to identify as originals or non originals, I don't know them well enough to judge them, here we are more alpina lovers, schnitzer and hartge are a bit more in the unknown territory, and you can easily understand that a 50 years life is a long time for differents owners, additions, and badges, but generally speaking i would have expected an M3 and not a hartge, so it might be worth a deeper investigation

Many e9s owners when their cars reached the eighties saw how their lovely coupes were left behind in front of the new models, and some were looking for something more, more cubic capacity, more camshaft angle cross, or special preparations like the ones mentioned before

The cylinder head is from the eighties, this was very common, that car is one of the early produced, like mine, early cylinder heads cracked easily due to the type of water passages that left little metal against the cylinder

What to do?

Obviously, it would be necessary to know its history well, when and who made it convertible and when and who transformed it, and what kind of transformation is involved, a swap of a later engine is not as valuable as a hartge upgrade
the Spanish registration date can be critical, it might show when the car was imported

The valuation of the car is very difficult, and it depends a lot on what they ask for it, that will be your start cost, and the beginning of your journey, it will require a lot of work, and those interior parts are very difficult to get, so a lot of money too

historically we have not seen a lot of interest in e9 cabrios, but this one might be a special one

If you are a car guy, if you know what is in the restoration world, i would cheer up, if you have arrived here by chance and without experience, let other guy make it his pet

only my 0,1€

good luck

 

[vince]

Someone drove the wheels off of it...

but seriously, I betting their is no top mechanism at all. Someone just cut the top off and covered everything up with a padded speaker area.

 

[deQuincey]

Someone drove the wheels off of it...

but seriously, I betting their is no top mechanism at all. Someone just cut the top off and covered everything up with a padded speaker area.

that is a good observation,...that is worrying

 

[Arde]

Hartge wheels are the best of all tuners if you ask me...

Yep, cutting the top off with no cover is fine if you do not leave in the plains as everybody knows that the rain in Spain falls mostly on the plains.

That suggests the water damage we see inside he car is rain water and not ocean water...

Someone drove the wheels off of it...

but seriously, I betting their is no top mechanism at all. Someone just cut the top off and covered everything up with a padded speaker area.

 

[shanon]

Hello Angel and welcome to the forum.

That is an interesting car and warrants a deep and thorough investigation. The Hartge badging, turbo motor and side exhaust in addition to it being a cabrio tells that this was a special car to a previous owner who possibly had the resources to do it properly. If those are actual Hartge bits, this will likely pull like a freight train and being very, very swift.

I acquired a non-turbo Hartge 3.5L from a 7 series out of Florida when I first started my E9 hot rod project. It turned out that it was more suited for my brother's E28 project so we did some horse trading and it went in there. I never got a chance to drive the E28 once the Hartge went in, but he said it really flew. Sadly, the motor had a short life to someone else's stupidity (don't ask, argh!!)....I just wish we still had the Hartge valve cover for the shop wall,

If your project is truly a turbo Hartge E9 Cabrio, it is indeed very special and could be very, very fast.

Good luck, be patient, keep us posted, get her done, and as said previously....drive the wheels off it and said us postcards!

"E9 Driven"

 

[Angelitomcfly]

Thanks for the feedback. I would love to see pictures of this car in its good old days, before and after the modification. It has details like the Emerson Fittipaldi signature steering wheel, hartge badges, engine, exhaust, gearbox and changed rear axle that make me uneasy. The owner who modified it personalized it and gave it love, I don't imagine how it could end up like this. The current owner talks about a possible hardtop with original aesthetics ... there is no evidence of it, I lean more towards a soft top, since in the photos I took you can see the anchors in the upper inner part of the front windshield and through the outside on the frame looks some canvas. I don't know anything about the tires, just look for some hartge online that is supposed to be able to mount 5x120. For now I do not know anything else about the car, and if it were some modification of bodybuilder or hartge, it is supposed that it should have some identification plate. I have only seen a couple of BMW e9 in line with this engine.

1974 BMW 3.0 - 3.5 CSI Turbo Cabriolet

BMW 3.5 CSI Cabrio „Turbo“ Baujahr 1974 Dieses Fahrzeug ist eine Sensation. Die Fa. Karmann baute von 1968 bis 1975 die E9 Coupe’s für BMW. In dieser Zeit entwarf Karman ein E9 Cabrio als Modell und stellte es BMW vor. Diese Idee fand bei BMW aber wenig Anklang, da der Wettbewerb die Fa. Baur...

www.classicdriver.com

1974 BMW 3.0CS Hartge H15 5 speed | German Cars For Sale Blog

Here we run across the common problem of the undocumented tuner car. This BMW appears to have been modified by Hartge, but comes with no…

germancarsforsaleblog.com

I will keep you informed.

 

[alprada70]

Interesante proyecto, mucha suerte si lo llegas a comprar...

 

[Markos]

FWIW - One notable feature of Hartge m30 motors is the custom valve cover. @dang had a Hartge car with one of these.

 

[Markos]

I just sold a mint set of staggered Hartge wheels about six months ago. Didn’t list them here though...

 

[Ohmess]

Putting aside the drive train for a minute, it would take a lot of dedication (and money) to restore this car.

First, it does appear that the car was modified to fit a removable hard top. Pins from the hardtop go into the two holes above the trunk lid and the front of the top secures to the latches. This is consistent with the raised rear parcel shelf. Alas, the fact that this top is missing means you would need to fabricate one from an e9 roof. More importantly, I think a primary reason BMW did not make a convertible version of our cars is the problem of making the chassis stiff enough without the top. How much cowl shake would this car exhibit at speed? This particular concern is amplified by the rust you have noted. If you attempt to restore this car, you probably need to consider reinforcing the chassis while fixing the rust.

Also, the interior sat outside uncovered for a long time. This likely means the interior will need to be stripped to bare metal and most of the parts will need to be replaced. The leather and wood trim cannot stand up to sitting in the sun. And the plywood, particle board, horse hair and other construction materials used in the interior were not designed to stand up to long term exposure to the elements, which means most of the parts cannot be rebuilt. The plywood structure in the shift console, for example, is probably unsound meaning the console needs to be replaced. To make matters worse, the gauges and electrical components are unlikely to be reliable.