Camshaft query

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David B

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I'm rebuilding my CSL engine. I'm increasing the compression ratio to 10:1 with custom JE pistons, and I'm also thinking of installing a higher performing camshaft. However, I've been warned that a 'hotter" cam could make the car run lumpy, because of little adjustment in the engine management to accomodate a racier camshaft.
I don't know if this advice is right. Would it be better to enhance performance with an improved exhaust system?
I wonder what experience others have of this.
Thanks for reading. Any advice appreciated.
David
 
I have a Schrick 284 cam and it idles fine, really opens up the engine >3000 rpm. I also have 3x Webers and headers. @sfdon could tell you how the Schrick works on an injected engine.
 
Do you mean “idle lumpy”? The car won’t “run lumpy“ with a cam.
if it’s the idle that you’re worried about, just turn the idle adjustment screw at the base of the throttle body.
 
i had a schrick 316 cam on a 2002 that Korman built. that had a funky idle that the 45dcoes could never cure, but 3000 to 7200 rpm it screamed
 
Cam, head, intake, exhaust and compression ratios are a package. Everything has to work together or the engine will fall on it's face at one place or another. Too much overlap will indeed result in poorer idle quality. With a too big a cam the engine can "lope" a bit at idle. This is because the large overlap lets out too much fresh charge and while the engine doesn't miss, the amount of power produced isn't consistent so at idle it can be "lumpy". How aggressive you go with cams is dependent on how much other work you want to do. More cam timing moves the power band to higher rpm's. More aggressive cam timing means that you're going to spin the engine to higher speeds to make that power. The rest of the system needs to be able to work at those speeds. For instance the heads of M30's are limiting and without head work it doesn't make much sense to run a lot more rpm's. If you put a mild cam in a stock head you can gain some power up to around 6200 rpm, but putting in a 300 - 305 degree cam in a stock M30 head doesn't make much sense since those cams really need to turn around 7000 rpm and give up power in the lower ranges. Remember that your power range is moving up. A mild cam will give up some low end torque, but will help the motor pull stronger to 6200 rpm. A bigger cam won't come in until 3500 but will pull to 7000. Headers help some but you're going to hit a wall without head work. More compression is always more power and I'm a compression guy, but higher octane fuel is a lot more expensive now than it used to be. CR's above 11 are probably not a good idea, something in the 10 to 11 range is fine. More compression helps smooth out the idle so as long as you're willing to put in high test gas more is better. If you don't do any head work a cam like the Ireland 282 will give a nice power boost but to really make the 292 work you would be better off getting a B35 head as that is the best breathing M30 stock head. If you're going to put in a cam you need better valve springs and new rockers. By the time you do that B35 heads are cheap so you can refurbish the whole head, do a 5 angle valve job and leave your stock head in box for the next owner.

To take advantage of an even bigger cam you need more compression, headers, and some head work. With some head work to improve the flow capability and by turning the motor to higher rpm is where the power is. Going to better valve springs will let you spin it to 7000 rpm and with better rockers and springs you can go to 7500. A strong setup for the street would be hotter street cam (around 300 degrees of duration) compression ratio around 11:1. with a ported head and headers.

As for induction if you have FI then they all flow well enough but obviously will require some retuning. If it's an early car sidedrafts are a huge improvement over downdraft carbs and they make a lot sweeter sound. For a 3 liter 40mm Webers work fine and for a 3.5 with head work 45's will work. To make 45's work on a 3.0 you need a big cam, head work, and headers as well as a CR around 11:1. That's a pretty sporty engine but it would be a ton of fun in a lightweight.

It all depends on how far you want to go and how much you want to spend.
 
Thanks @ElGrecko !
Nice summary tying what-goes-with-what. For me as an engine noob + at the point that my 3.0 Carbed M30 is out: right one time!

As i'm trying to decide how far i want to modify my engine, linking to available budget, I'd like to develop a plan, but I'm desperately lacking knowledge and experience. (Procrastination warning to self...).
My goal is a strong durable engine that can happily tour the autobahn at 140kmh (90Mph) for hours on end. Alpine back roads. But the wife should also be able to drive and enjoy the car. I have a 3.25 25% LSD and 5spd Getrag ready to match. I don't think I will ever track it. My engine isn't original to the car (it's from an '72 E3)

From the above, i think i learn that one could build different 'levels' of engine's basically stacking improvements on improvements, but in a logical order, reaching track engine specs in the end. I think also Kormann ( or was it Alpina?) that used terms like 'Stage 1/2/3' and basically used a similar approach?

Can you correct /add where I'm wrong in the following?
  • Starting from a standard engine, a first step up would with mild (287 degree?) cam to gain some power (Hp)
  • secondly, Headers would be an easy bolt on for me, so as they would be 'parts costs only' it would make an interesting 2nd step up.
  • Third, if money allows, a head job.
  • forth, piano top pistons for compression 9,0 (or was it 9,5?). If bigger budget allows, custom pistons like JE (around 1600 euro)
  • (not sure where in the list replacing the Zeniths to side drafts would be)
And if you're OK to shout ballpark USD figures for each step, then I would be helped a lot. I'm in Euro country, but USD estimations are fine - I kinda know how it translates from workshop rates + dollar/euro conversion.

Very specific to my case (I'm a sucker for original appearance): IF i want to keep the stock Zenith down draft carbs, how would it limit my engine output? Would it still be somewhat logical if I combine them to a mild cam+headers? Guess it would be limiting the engine a lot (thus stupid) if i match them to Head job + Custom 10,5 JE Pistons?
 
ElGrecko said:
Cam, head, intake, exhaust and compression ratios are a package. Everything has to work together or the engine will fall on it's face at one place or another. Too much overlap will indeed result in poorer idle quality. With a too big a cam the engine can "lope" a bit at idle. This is because the large overlap lets out too much fresh charge and while the engine doesn't miss, the amount of power produced isn't consistent so at idle it can be "lumpy". How aggressive you go with cams is dependent on how much other work you want to do. More cam timing moves the power band to higher rpm's. More aggressive cam timing means that you're going to spin the engine to higher speeds to make that power. The rest of the system needs to be able to work at those speeds. For instance the heads of M30's are limiting and without head work it doesn't make much sense to run a lot more rpm's. If you put a mild cam in a stock head you can gain some power up to around 6200 rpm, but putting in a 300 - 305 degree cam in a stock M30 head doesn't make much sense since those cams really need to turn around 7000 rpm and give up power in the lower ranges. Remember that your power range is moving up. A mild cam will give up some low end torque, but will help the motor pull stronger to 6200 rpm. A bigger cam won't come in until 3500 but will pull to 7000. Headers help some but you're going to hit a wall without head work. More compression is always more power and I'm a compression guy, but higher octane fuel is a lot more expensive now than it used to be. CR's above 11 are probably not a good idea, something in the 10 to 11 range is fine. More compression helps smooth out the idle so as long as you're willing to put in high test gas more is better. If you don't do any head work a cam like the Ireland 282 will give a nice power boost but to really make the 292 work you would be better off getting a B35 head as that is the best breathing M30 stock head. If you're going to put in a cam you need better valve springs and new rockers. By the time you do that B35 heads are cheap so you can refurbish the whole head, do a 5 angle valve job and leave your stock head in box for the next owner.

To take advantage of an even bigger cam you need more compression, headers, and some head work. With some head work to improve the flow capability and by turning the motor to higher rpm is where the power is. Going to better valve springs will let you spin it to 7000 rpm and with better rockers and springs you can go to 7500. A strong setup for the street would be hotter street cam (around 300 degrees of duration) compression ratio around 11:1. with a ported head and headers.

As for induction if you have FI then they all flow well enough but obviously will require some retuning. If it's an early car sidedrafts are a huge improvement over downdraft carbs and they make a lot sweeter sound. For a 3 liter 40mm Webers work fine and for a 3.5 with head work 45's will work. To make 45's work on a 3.0 you need a big cam, head work, and headers as well as a CR around 11:1. That's a pretty sporty engine but it would be a ton of fun in a lightweight.

It all depends on how far you want to go and how much you want to spend.
Click to expand...
Best engine post all over.
Thumbs up.

Apendex, every time tuning there m30 check all bearings and better replace them.
Check pump for propper work.

Breiti
 
Erik. It was Korman who used stage 1 thru 4. 1 was a stock rebuild, 2 is a performance update to around 225 to 240 depending on carbs. if I remember correctly it had head work, side drafts a 284 schrick cam and stahl headers with side drafts. They probably also changed pistons to 9.5:1

Stage 3 was more power but I don’t remember specs. Stage 4 was basically race prep.

Yes stock carbs will limit hp probably by 15 to 20 hp. IMHO going to 10:1 or 10.5:1 warrants more fuel. At a minimum Weber 38-38s. Still could use stock air cleaner I believe.
 
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I looked into Korman about a year or so ago. From their web site:
Korman offers 3 stages for older M30 engines, each with various options:

Stock - what it says...

Stage 1 - different options for EFI vs carbureted. Includes valve and head work and headers. Gain of about 20-25 hp.

Stage 2 - The real deal... gain of about 65-75 hp.
Our most popular performance rebuild for carbureted M30 engines. Produces 250 smooth, reliable
horsepower (3.5 liters).
Parts for the carbureted engine include:
• Triple Weber 40 DCOE carburetor kit with Korman 1 piece intake manifold
• Korman K-300 Camshaft
• Mahle High Compression Pistons
• Korman Rocker Arms
• Stahl Headers
• Performance Distributor (where applicable)
• Bosch Sport Coil

These engines also receive our Stage 2 cylinder head porting and polishing, Stage 2 connecting rods,
and engine oiling system modifications. Substituting the Schrick 284 cam yields 240 HP (3.0 liter), 250
HP (3.3 liter), and 260 HP (3.5 liter)

IIRC the cost for the stage 2 setup, assuming you need all of the parts, is north of $24K. Pricey, but it will add considerable value to the car, and from what I have read, it is bulletproof.
 
In my M90 I am running a bit over 10:1 compression. Ported and polished and a 284 cam. The cam was a regrind from Schneider Cams in San Diego. Cost at the time I had it done was $125 including over size eccentrics. The car runs strong and starts really pulling at 2500 with a stock ECU and is still pulling when the rev limiter kicks in so next will be an ECU I can chip

 
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eriknetherlands said:
Thanks @ElGrecko !
Nice summary tying what-goes-with-what. For me as an engine noob + at the point that my 3.0 Carbed M30 is out: right one time!

As i'm trying to decide how far i want to modify my engine, linking to available budget, I'd like to develop a plan, but I'm desperately lacking knowledge and experience. (Procrastination warning to self...).
My goal is a strong durable engine that can happily tour the autobahn at 140kmh (90Mph) for hours on end. Alpine back roads. But the wife should also be able to drive and enjoy the car. I have a 3.25 25% LSD and 5spd Getrag ready to match. I don't think I will ever track it. My engine isn't original to the car (it's from an '72 E3)

From the above, i think i learn that one could build different 'levels' of engine's basically stacking improvements on improvements, but in a logical order, reaching track engine specs in the end. I think also Kormann ( or was it Alpina?) that used terms like 'Stage 1/2/3' and basically used a similar approach?

Can you correct /add where I'm wrong in the following?
  • Starting from a standard engine, a first step up would with mild (287 degree?) cam to gain some power (Hp)
  • secondly, Headers would be an easy bolt on for me, so as they would be 'parts costs only' it would make an interesting 2nd step up.
  • Third, if money allows, a head job.
  • forth, piano top pistons for compression 9,0 (or was it 9,5?). If bigger budget allows, custom pistons like JE (around 1600 euro)
  • (not sure where in the list replacing the Zeniths to side drafts would be)
And if you're OK to shout ballpark USD figures for each step, then I would be helped a lot. I'm in Euro country, but USD estimations are fine - I kinda know how it translates from workshop rates + dollar/euro conversion.

Very specific to my case (I'm a sucker for original appearance): IF i want to keep the stock Zenith down draft carbs, how would it limit my engine output? Would it still be somewhat logical if I combine them to a mild cam+headers? Guess it would be limiting the engine a lot (thus stupid) if i match them to Head job + Custom 10,5 JE Pistons?
Click to expand...
All of this talk about power increases due to cams is really being made at higher rpm's. That is we're pushing the rpm's up because torque x rpm's = power. More cam doesn't drastically increase torque, it increases the rpm where the peak torque occurs. Torque is, for the most part, a function of displacement. When you go to a bigger cam you move the same torque to a higher rpm and therefore you make more power. But adding a cam and a bunch of head work isn't going to do much at all at highway speeds and a bigger cam could actually lose power below 3500 rpm.

If what you want to do is cruise at 90 mph with a 3.25 axle ratio and a 265/6 overdrive gearbox more cam isn't going to make any difference. I did a quick number on it and with those gears (.325 axle and 0.81 overdrive 5 speed) you are only turning a bit over 3300 rpm at 90 mph. Most of the cams you buy are barely going to be coming on at that low a speed. When you are rowing the gears on alpine back roads and are over 4000 rpm then a cam makes sense and the car will feel stronger at those higher rpms, and when you are accelerating there is certainly more power there.

The first place to start for you is the intake

While you want to keep a "stock" look the Zenith carbs are what is restricting your power. Your B30 carb version makes a peak torque of 188 ft lbs at 3700 rpm. With the gearing you are talking about you aren't over the torque peak at 90 mph so the engine is going to be pretty happy there. The fuel injected version makes more torque (201 ft lbs) at 4300 rpm. That tells us that the carbs are restricting the power and torque over 3700 rpm and that the intake of the FI version is a lot better. You will get an even slightly better bump if you go to sidedrafts, but the downdraft Weber conversion is also a big improvement in breathing, and it still looks stock. You can mess with headers, cam and head work all day long but if you're trying to suck air through a straw then it isn't going to make any difference. You need to work on the intake first as that is what is pinching your engine the most right now. Either the downdraft Webers (least expensive) or sidedrafts (they sound so good when you get them into the power band) or an FI manifold and throttle body with injection (aftermarket or stock) would be the first step. Until you do that you aren't going to see any real improvements. When I had my 2002 and the motor was stock I hung a set of 40 DCOE's on it and it woke up the engine big time compared to the single barrel Solex. Sidedrafts aren't cheap, you're talking about $3k for the package. Ireland Engineering sells a Weber 32/36 downdraft kit for $1100. DerSchwede ran a pair of Weber 36/36 DCD's on a stock 3.0 and was very happy with that package on an engine like yours. If you are doing things incrementally then the 36/36 is better as it works with later mods better, but the sidedrafts are the best, but cost a lot more.

Once you open up the intake then you can think about cams and head work and pistons, but intake is the first thing to do.

Headers are the second, and as you noted are an easy bolt on. Then and only then would you think about cams and headwork. The problem with your current engine is that you want to do both at the same time as putting a cam in a head that doesn't flow well isn't going to make much difference and opening the head up without the cam doesn't gain much either. And you really should bump up the CR when you do that so now it's going to get expensive as you are essentially rebuilding the whole engine with new pistons, bearings and seals and a head rebuild.

Another option that is not that expensive is to find a B34 or B35 engine that has good compression and drop that in. Around here that would cost you about $1500 to $2000 and that would make a real difference in both torque and power and it's reliable and a lot less effort. The advantage of the later engines is you're starting with a half a liter more engine so on those alpine backroads it will pull off the corners a good bit stronger. Since you are in Europe, the European B34 has a 10:1 CR and makes 218 hp and has 229 ft lbs of torque. That's 40 more ft lbs of torque than you have now and it's going to pull like a train compared to your current motor. If you didn't want to go into the internal parts of the engine and perhaps do carbs and a header that would be a nice package. With sidedraft carbs and a header you're probably around 230 hp and you are out the door for less than $6k and you'd have a very strong motor. Another option would be a downdraft Weber 36/36 DCD that has mechanical secondaries and would work well with the bigger engine but requires some intake manifold rework. That's going to be around $1200 more than the engine alone and it looks stock and has around 220 hp with the bigger downdrafts and a set of headers on it and that is likely the most cost effective way to get a lot more performance. The B35 has a better head, but a lower CR and you need to do pistons (more expense) and probably a cam (emissions regs reduced the cam timing) and it has more potential high end power, but it costs a good bit more to get more power than a European B34 with stock internals.

If you want to add a mild (like a 292) cam to your B34 the cam itself isn't expensive, around $200 for the stick, but... You need to replace rocker arms, valve springs (HD req), rocker locks and that's another $700 in hardware alone. You really should do a valve job and replace the guides while you're in there so a hotter cam is going to cost more than the sum of the parts. Figure about $2000 for the whole thing and you have a totally rebuilt head to go forward on.

The beauty of the M30 is that it was around for a long time and there are lot of used engines out there that can be the basis of a pretty strong engine if you want to mod it. But starting with a 3.5 is likely the easiest and least expensive way to make an E9 a more lively package.
 
ElGrecko said:
All of this talk about power increases due to cams is really being made at higher rpm's. That is we're pushing the rpm's up because torque x rpm's = power. More cam doesn't drastically increase torque, it increases the rpm where the peak torque occurs. Torque is, for the most part, a function of displacement. When you go to a bigger cam you move the same torque to a higher rpm and therefore you make more power. But adding a cam and a bunch of head work isn't going to do much at all at highway speeds and a bigger cam could actually lose power below 3500 rpm.

If what you want to do is cruise at 90 mph with a 3.25 axle ratio and a 265/6 overdrive gearbox more cam isn't going to make any difference. I did a quick number on it and with those gears (.325 axle and 0.81 overdrive 5 speed) you are only turning a bit over 3300 rpm at 90 mph. Most of the cams you buy are barely going to be coming on at that low a speed. When you are rowing the gears on alpine back roads and are over 4000 rpm then a cam makes sense and the car will feel stronger at those higher rpms, and when you are accelerating there is certainly more power there.

The first place to start for you is the intake

While you want to keep a "stock" look the Zenith carbs are what is restricting your power. Your B30 carb version makes a peak torque of 188 ft lbs at 3700 rpm. With the gearing you are talking about you aren't over the torque peak at 90 mph so the engine is going to be pretty happy there. The fuel injected version makes more torque (201 ft lbs) at 4300 rpm. That tells us that the carbs are restricting the power and torque over 3700 rpm and that the intake of the FI version is a lot better. You will get an even slightly better bump if you go to sidedrafts, but the downdraft Weber conversion is also a big improvement in breathing, and it still looks stock. You can mess with headers, cam and head work all day long but if you're trying to suck air through a straw then it isn't going to make any difference. You need to work on the intake first as that is what is pinching your engine the most right now. Either the downdraft Webers (least expensive) or sidedrafts (they sound so good when you get them into the power band) or an FI manifold and throttle body with injection (aftermarket or stock) would be the first step. Until you do that you aren't going to see any real improvements. When I had my 2002 and the motor was stock I hung a set of 40 DCOE's on it and it woke up the engine big time compared to the single barrel Solex. Sidedrafts aren't cheap, you're talking about $3k for the package. Ireland Engineering sells a Weber 32/36 downdraft kit for $1100. DerSchwede ran a pair of Weber 36/36 DCD's on a stock 3.0 and was very happy with that package on an engine like yours. If you are doing things incrementally then the 36/36 is better as it works with later mods better, but the sidedrafts are the best, but cost a lot more.

Once you open up the intake then you can think about cams and head work and pistons, but intake is the first thing to do.

Headers are the second, and as you noted are an easy bolt on. Then and only then would you think about cams and headwork. The problem with your current engine is that you want to do both at the same time as putting a cam in a head that doesn't flow well isn't going to make much difference and opening the head up without the cam doesn't gain much either. And you really should bump up the CR when you do that so now it's going to get expensive as you are essentially rebuilding the whole engine with new pistons, bearings and seals and a head rebuild.

Another option that is not that expensive is to find a B34 or B35 engine that has good compression and drop that in. Around here that would cost you about $1500 to $2000 and that would make a real difference in both torque and power and it's reliable and a lot less effort. The advantage of the later engines is you're starting with a half a liter more engine so on those alpine backroads it will pull off the corners a good bit stronger. Since you are in Europe, the European B34 has a 10:1 CR and makes 218 hp and has 229 ft lbs of torque. That's 40 more ft lbs of torque than you have now and it's going to pull like a train compared to your current motor. If you didn't want to go into the internal parts of the engine and perhaps do carbs and a header that would be a nice package. With sidedraft carbs and a header you're probably around 230 hp and you are out the door for less than $6k and you'd have a very strong motor. Another option would be a downdraft Weber 36/36 DCD that has mechanical secondaries and would work well with the bigger engine but requires some intake manifold rework. That's going to be around $1200 more than the engine alone and it looks stock and has around 220 hp with the bigger downdrafts and a set of headers on it and that is likely the most cost effective way to get a lot more performance. The B35 has a better head, but a lower CR and you need to do pistons (more expense) and probably a cam (emissions regs reduced the cam timing) and it has more potential high end power, but it costs a good bit more to get more power than a European B34 with stock internals.

If you want to add a mild (like a 292) cam to your B34 the cam itself isn't expensive, around $200 for the stick, but... You need to replace rocker arms, valve springs (HD req), rocker locks and that's another $700 in hardware alone. You really should do a valve job and replace the guides while you're in there so a hotter cam is going to cost more than the sum of the parts. Figure about $2000 for the whole thing and you have a totally rebuilt head to go forward on.

The beauty of the M30 is that it was around for a long time and there are lot of used engines out there that can be the basis of a pretty strong engine if you want to mod it. But starting with a 3.5 is likely the easiest and least expensive way to make an E9 a more lively package.
Click to expand...
This is brilliant!! One of the clearest explanations of the balancing act of engine upgrades I have seen.

I recently posted on the E24 forum (BigCoupe.com) about my E24 M90 engine vs S38 engines in the same E24 car. Your comments about torque, and where the torque comes on are spot on. Obviously an M30 engine is a somewhat different animal, especially with carbs, but the driving experience of different forms of the same basic engine is, I think, useful to understand. My experience its that for twisty roads, low end torque is critical...

Here is what I wrote about that from a driving experience:

The M90 has a much flatter torque curve than the B35 or the S38.

I have a 1980 M90 powered 635, and had a 1988 B35, and swapped drives with a friend who had an S38 powered 635.

The B35 was super smooth, and reasonably powered, but nothing unusual. The S38 car was about the same as the B35 until you hit about 3500 RPM, when the horses really let loose. In contrast the M90 pulls from the get go and never stops until redline (torque comes on around 1500 RPM in that car).

We have some roads here in northern CA that locals will recognize. I once organized a drive with some local friends and a couple of BCG folks from out of town. We met at a Starbucks in the town of Saratoga. There were two Dinan M6s and my 80 Euro. We headed out up Highway 9 destined for Skyline Drive. My car, Rocinante, was spinning the rear wheels exiting the uphill hairpin turns on that road, and cutting curves so fast I got dizzy a few times.This was a high torque demand up-hill twisty road, and Rocinante excels at this sort of thing. I got to the top, at Skyline, and waited by the side of the road for about 5 minutes until the other guys caught up. We headed down Skyline Dr. towards Highway 84, anbout 8 miles away. This road is fairly flat, but still very twisty. I had figured the higher powered (256 vs 218 hp ) Dinan cars would smoke me on this road, but that was not the case. The hard twists and turns, with fast entries and slow exits proved to be tough for the high revving M6s. I'd enter fast, brake hard and jam out of the curves with all the torque I needed, effortlessly climbing up through the gears. Meanwhile they would charge into the corners, brake hard and slog out of the turns until they got up to higher revs, but by then they were into the next curve. Again I awaited about 5-10 minutes at Highway 84 for them to show up. We then charged down the hill to San Gregorio. Even downhill the huge flat torque curve of the M90 put me miles ahead. I finally pulled over in the flats and waited. Once we got onto coast highway (US 1) I was jamming hard in 3nd gear on a straight section of road, and the M6's just left me in the dust.

So yes, the M90 torque is amazing, and for tight twisty roads, it will crush the higher powered but more finnicky B35 and S38, but when you get out on straighter roads with less needed grunt getting out of corners, the freer breathing higher RPM engines will leave the M90 behind.

My expereience YMMV..
Scott
 
David B said:
I'm rebuilding my CSL engine. I'm increasing the compression ratio to 10:1 with custom JE pistons, and I'm also thinking of installing a higher performing camshaft. However, I've been warned that a 'hotter" cam could make the car run lumpy, because of little adjustment in the engine management to accomodate a racier camshaft.
I don't know if this advice is right. Would it be better to enhance performance with an improved exhaust system?
I wonder what experience others have of this.
Thanks for reading. Any advice appreciated.
David
Click to expand...
JE takes forever to make pistons. Try Diamond Racing Pistons. 3 weeks from when the shop ordered them to receiving them. They were so pretty I didn't want to put them in the car LOL. Somewhere I heard Diamond was owned by JE?
 
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