Camshaft query

David B

Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
4
Location
Sydney
I'm rebuilding my CSL engine. I'm increasing the compression ratio to 10:1 with custom JE pistons, and I'm also thinking of installing a higher performing camshaft. However, I've been warned that a 'hotter" cam could make the car run lumpy, because of little adjustment in the engine management to accomodate a racier camshaft.
I don't know if this advice is right. Would it be better to enhance performance with an improved exhaust system?
I wonder what experience others have of this.
Thanks for reading. Any advice appreciated.
David
 
I have a Schrick 284 cam and it idles fine, really opens up the engine >3000 rpm. I also have 3x Webers and headers. @sfdon could tell you how the Schrick works on an injected engine.
 
Do you mean “idle lumpy”? The car won’t “run lumpy“ with a cam.
if it’s the idle that you’re worried about, just turn the idle adjustment screw at the base of the throttle body.
 
i had a schrick 316 cam on a 2002 that Korman built. that had a funky idle that the 45dcoes could never cure, but 3000 to 7200 rpm it screamed
 
Cam, head, intake, exhaust and compression ratios are a package. Everything has to work together or the engine will fall on it's face at one place or another. Too much overlap will indeed result in poorer idle quality. With a too big a cam the engine can "lope" a bit at idle. This is because the large overlap lets out too much fresh charge and while the engine doesn't miss, the amount of power produced isn't consistent so at idle it can be "lumpy". How aggressive you go with cams is dependent on how much other work you want to do. More cam timing moves the power band to higher rpm's. More aggressive cam timing means that you're going to spin the engine to higher speeds to make that power. The rest of the system needs to be able to work at those speeds. For instance the heads of M30's are limiting and without head work it doesn't make much sense to run a lot more rpm's. If you put a mild cam in a stock head you can gain some power up to around 6200 rpm, but putting in a 300 - 305 degree cam in a stock M30 head doesn't make much sense since those cams really need to turn around 7000 rpm and give up power in the lower ranges. Remember that your power range is moving up. A mild cam will give up some low end torque, but will help the motor pull stronger to 6200 rpm. A bigger cam won't come in until 3500 but will pull to 7000. Headers help some but you're going to hit a wall without head work. More compression is always more power and I'm a compression guy, but higher octane fuel is a lot more expensive now than it used to be. CR's above 11 are probably not a good idea, something in the 10 to 11 range is fine. More compression helps smooth out the idle so as long as you're willing to put in high test gas more is better. If you don't do any head work a cam like the Ireland 282 will give a nice power boost but to really make the 292 work you would be better off getting a B35 head as that is the best breathing M30 stock head. If you're going to put in a cam you need better valve springs and new rockers. By the time you do that B35 heads are cheap so you can refurbish the whole head, do a 5 angle valve job and leave your stock head in box for the next owner.

To take advantage of an even bigger cam you need more compression, headers, and some head work. With some head work to improve the flow capability and by turning the motor to higher rpm is where the power is. Going to better valve springs will let you spin it to 7000 rpm and with better rockers and springs you can go to 7500. A strong setup for the street would be hotter street cam (around 300 degrees of duration) compression ratio around 11:1. with a ported head and headers.

As for induction if you have FI then they all flow well enough but obviously will require some retuning. If it's an early car sidedrafts are a huge improvement over downdraft carbs and they make a lot sweeter sound. For a 3 liter 40mm Webers work fine and for a 3.5 with head work 45's will work. To make 45's work on a 3.0 you need a big cam, head work, and headers as well as a CR around 11:1. That's a pretty sporty engine but it would be a ton of fun in a lightweight.

It all depends on how far you want to go and how much you want to spend.
 
Thanks @ElGrecko !
Nice summary tying what-goes-with-what. For me as an engine noob + at the point that my 3.0 Carbed M30 is out: right one time!

As i'm trying to decide how far i want to modify my engine, linking to available budget, I'd like to develop a plan, but I'm desperately lacking knowledge and experience. (Procrastination warning to self...).
My goal is a strong durable engine that can happily tour the autobahn at 140kmh (90Mph) for hours on end. Alpine back roads. But the wife should also be able to drive and enjoy the car. I have a 3.25 25% LSD and 5spd Getrag ready to match. I don't think I will ever track it. My engine isn't original to the car (it's from an '72 E3)

From the above, i think i learn that one could build different 'levels' of engine's basically stacking improvements on improvements, but in a logical order, reaching track engine specs in the end. I think also Kormann ( or was it Alpina?) that used terms like 'Stage 1/2/3' and basically used a similar approach?

Can you correct /add where I'm wrong in the following?
  • Starting from a standard engine, a first step up would with mild (287 degree?) cam to gain some power (Hp)
  • secondly, Headers would be an easy bolt on for me, so as they would be 'parts costs only' it would make an interesting 2nd step up.
  • Third, if money allows, a head job.
  • forth, piano top pistons for compression 9,0 (or was it 9,5?). If bigger budget allows, custom pistons like JE (around 1600 euro)
  • (not sure where in the list replacing the Zeniths to side drafts would be)
And if you're OK to shout ballpark USD figures for each step, then I would be helped a lot. I'm in Euro country, but USD estimations are fine - I kinda know how it translates from workshop rates + dollar/euro conversion.

Very specific to my case (I'm a sucker for original appearance): IF i want to keep the stock Zenith down draft carbs, how would it limit my engine output? Would it still be somewhat logical if I combine them to a mild cam+headers? Guess it would be limiting the engine a lot (thus stupid) if i match them to Head job + Custom 10,5 JE Pistons?
 
Cam, head, intake, exhaust and compression ratios are a package. Everything has to work together or the engine will fall on it's face at one place or another. Too much overlap will indeed result in poorer idle quality. With a too big a cam the engine can "lope" a bit at idle. This is because the large overlap lets out too much fresh charge and while the engine doesn't miss, the amount of power produced isn't consistent so at idle it can be "lumpy". How aggressive you go with cams is dependent on how much other work you want to do. More cam timing moves the power band to higher rpm's. More aggressive cam timing means that you're going to spin the engine to higher speeds to make that power. The rest of the system needs to be able to work at those speeds. For instance the heads of M30's are limiting and without head work it doesn't make much sense to run a lot more rpm's. If you put a mild cam in a stock head you can gain some power up to around 6200 rpm, but putting in a 300 - 305 degree cam in a stock M30 head doesn't make much sense since those cams really need to turn around 7000 rpm and give up power in the lower ranges. Remember that your power range is moving up. A mild cam will give up some low end torque, but will help the motor pull stronger to 6200 rpm. A bigger cam won't come in until 3500 but will pull to 7000. Headers help some but you're going to hit a wall without head work. More compression is always more power and I'm a compression guy, but higher octane fuel is a lot more expensive now than it used to be. CR's above 11 are probably not a good idea, something in the 10 to 11 range is fine. More compression helps smooth out the idle so as long as you're willing to put in high test gas more is better. If you don't do any head work a cam like the Ireland 282 will give a nice power boost but to really make the 292 work you would be better off getting a B35 head as that is the best breathing M30 stock head. If you're going to put in a cam you need better valve springs and new rockers. By the time you do that B35 heads are cheap so you can refurbish the whole head, do a 5 angle valve job and leave your stock head in box for the next owner.

To take advantage of an even bigger cam you need more compression, headers, and some head work. With some head work to improve the flow capability and by turning the motor to higher rpm is where the power is. Going to better valve springs will let you spin it to 7000 rpm and with better rockers and springs you can go to 7500. A strong setup for the street would be hotter street cam (around 300 degrees of duration) compression ratio around 11:1. with a ported head and headers.

As for induction if you have FI then they all flow well enough but obviously will require some retuning. If it's an early car sidedrafts are a huge improvement over downdraft carbs and they make a lot sweeter sound. For a 3 liter 40mm Webers work fine and for a 3.5 with head work 45's will work. To make 45's work on a 3.0 you need a big cam, head work, and headers as well as a CR around 11:1. That's a pretty sporty engine but it would be a ton of fun in a lightweight.

It all depends on how far you want to go and how much you want to spend.
Best engine post all over.
Thumbs up.

Apendex, every time tuning there m30 check all bearings and better replace them.
Check pump for propper work.

Breiti
 
Erik. It was Korman who used stage 1 thru 4. 1 was a stock rebuild, 2 is a performance update to around 225 to 240 depending on carbs. if I remember correctly it had head work, side drafts a 284 schrick cam and stahl headers with side drafts. They probably also changed pistons to 9.5:1

Stage 3 was more power but I don’t remember specs. Stage 4 was basically race prep.

Yes stock carbs will limit hp probably by 15 to 20 hp. IMHO going to 10:1 or 10.5:1 warrants more fuel. At a minimum Weber 38-38s. Still could use stock air cleaner I believe.
 
Last edited:
I looked into Korman about a year or so ago. From their web site:
Korman offers 3 stages for older M30 engines, each with various options:

Stock - what it says...

Stage 1 - different options for EFI vs carbureted. Includes valve and head work and headers. Gain of about 20-25 hp.

Stage 2 - The real deal... gain of about 65-75 hp.
Our most popular performance rebuild for carbureted M30 engines. Produces 250 smooth, reliable
horsepower (3.5 liters).
Parts for the carbureted engine include:
• Triple Weber 40 DCOE carburetor kit with Korman 1 piece intake manifold
• Korman K-300 Camshaft
• Mahle High Compression Pistons
• Korman Rocker Arms
• Stahl Headers
• Performance Distributor (where applicable)
• Bosch Sport Coil

These engines also receive our Stage 2 cylinder head porting and polishing, Stage 2 connecting rods,
and engine oiling system modifications. Substituting the Schrick 284 cam yields 240 HP (3.0 liter), 250
HP (3.3 liter), and 260 HP (3.5 liter)

IIRC the cost for the stage 2 setup, assuming you need all of the parts, is north of $24K. Pricey, but it will add considerable value to the car, and from what I have read, it is bulletproof.
 
In my M90 I am running a bit over 10:1 compression. Ported and polished and a 284 cam. The cam was a regrind from Schneider Cams in San Diego. Cost at the time I had it done was $125 including over size eccentrics. The car runs strong and starts really pulling at 2500 with a stock ECU and is still pulling when the rev limiter kicks in so next will be an ECU I can chip

 
Last edited:
Back
Top