CSi or CSL?

[HB Chris]

I received an e-mail through our Registry with the following question:

"I have an E9 coupe that is supposedly a CSL. It does however have a CSi VIN number but all the distinctive elements of a CSL. Can you assist me in getting clarity by giving me a list of things I need to look for on the car specifically that would make it a CSL for sure? The VIN of the car is 2263278."

I replied that I didn't think this was possible but received the following:

"Thanks for the feedback. This however is not quite as obvious as it sounds. The debate as to whether it is a CSL has been going on for some years. I have correspondence from various sources in Germany and the UK citing the fact that there are CSL’s in existence with CSi Vin numbers. The history that has been traced over the years, dating back to the 80’s, was that the car with this number was delivered new in Italy, stolen and recovered in Switzerland and then came to SA in the early 80’s. The car has had a bare metal restoration by the previous owner who is a very good friend of mine and owned a BMW dealership at the time and it has all the correct aluminium panels, the boot stay is CSL style, every element is a CSL including the displacement of the engine, 3003cc, the seats, the wind down windows, the bonnet clips and stays. Far too much to just be a modification.

What are your thoughts based on that? Is there a specific part that I can or should look for on the body itself to determine authenticity?"

I suggested he contact the BMW Archive and also join our Forum as we do have several CSL experts here. Anyone care to weigh in who have some knowledge on this and not just speculation as the case would be for me?

 

[shanon]

"Weigh in...."

Suggest go putting it on a scale.

CSI = 3000-3200+lbs
CSL = 2700lbs and under for early Ultra light, city pack = 2850lbs+ (?)

my 2 cents for obtaining that 'eureka' moment.

;-)

 

[Arde]

Well the chain of custody was broken when the car was stolen in Italy and recovered in Switzerland.

The mostly likely scenario is that a CSL was stolen and got the identity of a sacrificial CSi to elude capture. This is what cars smuggled through Paraguay do I hear until now.
The original CSi is somewhere in Montreaux at the bottom of a lake.

The swiss angle is worrying, I shook hands once at a bank branch, when I counted I was missing two fingers. I went back and demanded them cause they were the fingers I use in traffic here.

 

[E911]

Check the roof... it they went through the effort to replace the roof skin with thinner metal then they deserve to call it an L.

-Richard

 

[Stevehose]

what is the vin number that's in the passenger firewall (not the tag)?

 

[30csl]

Or what engine number it has to see if that is a correct csl number.

 

[HB Chris]

VIN is posted in this thread, he says lightweight panels abound. Even my stock CS roof bends with very little pressure, how can you tell the even thinner CSL, it would be tough I think. Motor was replaced with a 3003 but I agree he should check for the VIN stamp there but you can bore a motor out to anything you want so that doesn't prove anything. Why would BMW take a 226xxxx CSi and build it as a CSL?

 

[Stevehose]

My point being that someone had to graft in the firewall from the Csi and possibly an evidence trail left over from that operation.

VIN is posted in this thread, he says lightweight panels abound. Even my stock CS roof bends with very little pressure, how can you tell the even thinner CSL, it would be tough I think. Motor was replaced with a 3003 but I agree he should check for the VIN stamp there but you can bore a motor out to anything you want so that doesn't prove anything. Why would BMW take a 226xxxx CSi and build it as a CSL?

 

[Ski coach]

Sounds like an opportunity to solve a long standing crime. Do the records exist that identify the original VIN of the stolen Csl? If so, compare the engine numbers of the two vehicles.

 

[HB Chris]

He claims VIN is original but that BMW made it a CSL. If he joins the Forum he can explain.

 

[E911]

a CSL roof deflects noticeably easier than a normal Coupe... also check the door hinges- that would be another long shot to get swapped

 

[Arde]

Sounds like an opportunity to solve a long standing crime. Do the records exist that identify the original VIN of the stolen Csl? If so, compare the engine numbers of the two vehicles.

Yes, I always wanted to make a citizen's arrest!

 

[E911]

"Why would BMW take a 226xxxx CSi and build it as a CSL?"

They wouldn't but I could imagine the opposite- slow CSL sales resulting in some BMW marketing genius adding lots of stuff back to the car to make it more luxurious... but they called that a "City Pack" car and didn't try to hide it.

The uber rare CSL's are coming out of the woodwork now. First, the custom factory flares and BBS wheels and now L's disguised as CSi's.

If anyone has a 2800CSa with a factory supplied ZF close ratio 5 speed and Motorsport slide valve engine I'm buying.

All in fun- Richard

 

[BMW Pete]

Who knows

For my two pennies. I don't know the guy and am only making my comments with the limited knowledge shared.

I don't think there is anyway to be sure from a distance of what has happened, especially if you inject the "stolen" piece of the history and add a few countries into the mix, many things could have happened.

I would caution, is somebody trying to get the forum to authenticate their car, I would stay away from doing that. Now that a CSL is so much more valuable, we will be bumping into things like this.

These cars were very easily stolen in the day and I have no doubt there are a few CSLs that have gone missing and will never be found again, or if they are, there will be a story attached and they may be similar to the one below.

There are many things on a CSL which could identify it as being a real CSL, some have been mentioned and there are many more, but most everything is movable from one car to another and even CSL gauge steel panels can be recreated. That said, it wasn't worth doing until very recently. So, did somebody damage an E9 and "find" another complete car and just move the necessary identification marks...... we couldn't possibly know without being next to the car and then we would be asking to dig into things to satisfy ourselves.

Here would be a fun answer, ask the guy to go to the cops and get their car forensic people to make a judgment on the identification marks? He may not want to do that, just in case

On a more serious note, there is only one answer " get the guy to ask BMW". We all know BMWs records are less than perfect, but if they say it was made as a CSL, great, if they say it wasn't, would anybody here buy into the story or buy the car as a CSL?

 

[Arde]

Good point, ask Andreas.
I would buy the car as a CSL because a dark story increases value.
I would make sure the statute of limitations in Italy, Switzerland, and SA expired.

How much does he want for the car?

 

[HB Chris]

I hope he joins here, he has quite a bit of history since the 80s. Again, I didn't want to speculate too much, just looking for known facts from our experts.

 

[frogisland]

ID swapped, as stated CSi now at the bottom of a lake?
Reshelled such as this one? But CSI number retained?
http://www.classic-auctions.com/Auctions/21-06-2014-RockinghamCastle-1367/1973BMW30CSL-37852.aspx
BMW producing a CSi using CSL parts is a nice idea but reality?
Is the rear firewall thinner gauge steel also, front fenders, rear quarters?
JP