Distributor failure?

[raulvargasdelos]

Gents;
A couple of day ago while driving my 1971 3.0CS, the engine sputtered a bit but resumed ok, a little latter it sputtered harder and quit. Thought it was gas, changed fuel filter and fed some from top on both carbs, it started as if it was completely out of timing, like on 3 cyl.
Turns out that there is a steel ball that holds down the points swivel plate permitting spark advance. The steel piece that holds it in place had broken and the points where completely loose.
Fabricated a new piece, installed it and looks and feels perfect.
Engine does not start and acts like it’s running on three cilinders.
Changed condenser, rotor and cap.
Checked ignition timing and is right on the dot.
Checked coil, 1.9 and 9.8K Ohms
Engine would not start.
Checked coil spark: blue and rapid
Checked sparks plugs: yellow spark.
I’m nearly out of battery by now.
Has anyone experienced something like this and can shed some light?
Cheers
Raúl

 

[tochi]

Fabricated a new piece, installed it and looks and feels perfect.
Engine does not start and acts like it’s running on three cilinders.
Changed condenser, rotor and cap.
Checked ignition timing and is right on the dot.
Checked coil, 1.9 and 9.8K Ohms
Engine would not start.
Checked coil spark: blue and rapid
Checked sparks plugs: yellow spark.
I’m nearly out of battery by now.
Has anyone experienced something like this and can shed some light?
Cheers
Raúl

Blue spark is strong.
Yellow spark indicates weak.

If the coil produces a strong spark, then something between coil and spark plugs is “evidently" reducing the transmission of the high voltage energy to the spark plugs. You mention changing condenser, cap and rotor. Was something obviously wrong with one or all parts? (You could try reinstalling the old cap or rotor.)
You do not mention anything about your high tension leads. Are they in decent condition? Are they properly connected to distributor cap terminals and spark plugs? Spark plug condition? Are they properly gapped? You do not mention the condition or any dwell setting for the ignition points. Are the points properly adjusted?

You state that you fabricated a new piece for the plate upon which the distributor points. That plate is integral to ignition vacuum advance/retard function. Are you sure it is functioning properly and not interfering with ignition points?

How are you checking the ignition timing if "engine does not start or acts like it is running on three cylinders?" Or "engine would not start?"
Unless you are checking only the static timing, presumably, using a timing light with the engine running would confirm that the distributor is operating as designed and that includes not only distributing high voltage to each plug, but also permitting centrifugal and vacuum advance function @1,700 or 2,500 rpm (see attached)

 

[rsporsche]

perhaps the Pertronix ignition swap might be a good consideration

 

[jmackro]

Turns out that there is a steel ball that holds down the points swivel plate permitting spark advance. The steel piece that holds it in place had broke

perhaps the Pertronix ignition swap might be a good consideration

No a Pertronix wouldn't fix raulvargasdelos' problem. The Pertronix - like the points - is attached to that swivel plate so if the plate is flopping around, he'd still have a problem with incorrect advance. A 123 distributor would fix things, but that's a lot more money.

 

[rsporsche]

i guess i always assumed that the 123 dizzy and pertronix went together. i have later injection ... so no points.

 

[raulvargasdelos]

Thanks for the responses;
I checked the points gap and set at 0.385mm. I have not being able to check advance as the engine does not run, but static check is right on the dot.
What is really odd is that it was running perfectly, so the high tension wires and plugs should be in working order, could it be that two or three can go bad at the same time?.
So, has anyone used a A123 distributor? Is it a complete distributor?
I’m just thinking that I may need a new distributor…this is the first time that I cannot figure out what is wrong, I’m a trained mechanic with a couple of E3’s and a 1970 280SE, all repaired and maintained personally in perfect condition; and, very frustrated at this point…
Cheers
Raúl

 

[Stevehose]

Did someone say 123? Yes a number of us have them and I love mine, it is a technological leap forward. If you get one we can help you install it, not difficult but there are a few tips. I have the bluetooth model.

Bluetooth Programmable BMW 6 cyl Naturally Aspirated

Your US Distributor of electronic ignition distributors for classic cars 123ignition

123ignitionusa.com

I also have the upgraded shaft with reverse oil groove, some people have had oil intrusion issues.

 

[Stevehose]

i guess i always assumed that the 123 dizzy and pertronix went together. i have later injection ... so no points.

Pertronix goes in an old skool dist and has no effect on timing curves, 123 is the whole enchilada.

 

[mulberryworks]

Thanks for the responses;
I checked the points gap and set at 0.385mm. I have not being able to check advance as the engine does not run, but static check is right on the dot.
What is really odd is that it was running perfectly, so the high tension wires and plugs should be in working order, could it be that two or three can go bad at the same time?.
So, has anyone used a A123 distributor? Is it a complete distributor?
I’m just thinking that I may need a new distributor…this is the first time that I cannot figure out what is wrong, I’m a trained mechanic with a couple of E3’s and a 1970 280SE, all repaired and maintained personally in perfect condition; and, very frustrated at this point…
Cheers
Raúl

My distributor had several issues when I bought the car. The car would cough and splutter and run on just a few cylinders then die. This, and the rust issues are the reason the owner decided to sell, so I'm grateful for those issues, otherwise, I wouldn't have found a coupe on my small Pacific island. The points were bad and replacing them with a Pertronix unit made the car run, but there was still very erratic timing. It was so erratic that when trying to set the timing, there was no way to spot the 'ball' on the flywheel in the transmission window. I didn't know about the 123 brand distributors but I was able to buy a rebuilt distributor on eBay. Rebuild parts are getting hard to find so the availability of new distributors will help keep more cars on the road in years to come. I've seen posts about distributors that have failed catastrophically so it is possible to have multiple sudden failures.

 

[boonies]

I have a 123 and like it very much. @Stevehose was a great help in sharing his experience and curves.

I do have my spare pertrtonix equipped e9 unit for sale (parts section) if you decide to go that route.

 

[tochi]

Thanks for the responses;
I checked the points gap and set at 0.385mm. I have not being able to check advance as the engine does not run, but static check is right on the dot.
What is really odd is that it was running perfectly, so the high tension wires and plugs should be in working order, could it be that two or three can go bad at the same time?.
So, has anyone used a A123 distributor? Is it a complete distributor?
I’m just thinking that I may need a new distributor…this is the first time that I cannot figure out what is wrong, I’m a trained mechanic with a couple of E3’s and a 1970 280SE, all repaired and maintained personally in perfect condition; and, very frustrated at this point…
Cheers
Raúl

Not suggesting that you cannibalize parts from working E3s, . . . but distributors should easily interchange.

You mention the part that tensions the ignition points plate broke. Is it possible that something related, fell below the plate and interfered with the centrifugal advance mechanism? (It might not take much effort to detach or malform a decades-old advance spring.) While you can superficially confirm the centrifugal advance operation by twisting the distributor shaft, perhaps it is time to remove the distributor and give it a bench examination?

 

[raulvargasdelos]

Gents;
Thanks for the comments and good will to help out. The swivel plate seems to operate properly, it twists and returns, I’m attaching a picture of the piece that broke that I fabricated and replaced…I don’t think that it serves as a ground point or anything like that…..
I will use the E3 distributor as it is identical and see what happens, I just didn’t want to mess with it because I would have to redo the whole timing procedure upon return.
Thanks again!
Cheers
Raúl