steve in reno
Well-Known Member
How do you align the doors on a coupe?
Has anyone used generic contour seals from non-BMW cars?
steve
Has anyone used generic contour seals from non-BMW cars?
steve
door alignment
- Thread starter steve in reno
- Start date
Bill Riblett
(deceased)
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 10
E9 door alignment
If what you are trying to do is get the door to fit the door opening, here is what I do:
Remove the door upholstery panel.
I also remove the front seats for working room.
Shut the door.
Loosen the 3 bolts inside the door for the hinges.
Try to shake or otherwise get the door to move in the direction needed.
Get a helper to try to push the rear of the door up slightly. (this is because the doors I have worked on all sagged down at back at least slightly.)
Tighten the hinge bolts.
Open and shut the door - how does it look?
I usually have to repeat the process several times to get what I want.
This assumes the door is not 'twisted' so that one corner sticks out. I've forgotten how you deal with that!
E9 door opening seals have several different cross-section parts which is going to make finding generic parts tougher.
If what you are trying to do is get the door to fit the door opening, here is what I do:
Remove the door upholstery panel.
I also remove the front seats for working room.
Shut the door.
Loosen the 3 bolts inside the door for the hinges.
Try to shake or otherwise get the door to move in the direction needed.
Get a helper to try to push the rear of the door up slightly. (this is because the doors I have worked on all sagged down at back at least slightly.)
Tighten the hinge bolts.
Open and shut the door - how does it look?
I usually have to repeat the process several times to get what I want.
This assumes the door is not 'twisted' so that one corner sticks out. I've forgotten how you deal with that!
E9 door opening seals have several different cross-section parts which is going to make finding generic parts tougher.
Bill Riblett
(deceased)
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 10
E9 door alignment
If what you are trying to do is get the door to fit the door opening, here is what I do:
Remove the door upholstery panel.
I also remove the front seats for working room.
Shut the door.
Loosen the 3 bolts inside the door for the hinges.
Try to shake or otherwise get the door to move in the direction needed.
Get a helper to try to push the rear of the door up slightly. (this is because the doors I have worked on all sagged down at back at least slightly.)
Tighten the hinge bolts.
Open and shut the door - how does it look?
I usually have to repeat the process several times to get what I want.
This assumes the door is not 'twisted' so that one corner sticks out. I've forgotten how you deal with that!
E9 door opening seals have several different cross-section parts which is going to make finding generic parts tougher.
If what you are trying to do is get the door to fit the door opening, here is what I do:
Remove the door upholstery panel.
I also remove the front seats for working room.
Shut the door.
Loosen the 3 bolts inside the door for the hinges.
Try to shake or otherwise get the door to move in the direction needed.
Get a helper to try to push the rear of the door up slightly. (this is because the doors I have worked on all sagged down at back at least slightly.)
Tighten the hinge bolts.
Open and shut the door - how does it look?
I usually have to repeat the process several times to get what I want.
This assumes the door is not 'twisted' so that one corner sticks out. I've forgotten how you deal with that!
E9 door opening seals have several different cross-section parts which is going to make finding generic parts tougher.
decoupe
(deceased)
Door Adjustment
Bill - since you brought it up, how do you correct a twist? My driver door is flush top and bottom at the A pillar and at the rear bottom trailing edge but the top trailing edge is out by 1/8" +/-.
I remember seeing a documentary on the 1930's Ford assembly line with a technician (big white dude) using a block of wood and a hip check to adjust the fit in the opening. I'm somewhat reluctant and (under nourished) to try this so if anyone knows the correct procedure (other than eating more) to fix this I'd like to know.
Doug
Bill - since you brought it up, how do you correct a twist? My driver door is flush top and bottom at the A pillar and at the rear bottom trailing edge but the top trailing edge is out by 1/8" +/-.
I remember seeing a documentary on the 1930's Ford assembly line with a technician (big white dude) using a block of wood and a hip check to adjust the fit in the opening. I'm somewhat reluctant and (under nourished) to try this so if anyone knows the correct procedure (other than eating more) to fix this I'd like to know.
Doug
decoupe
(deceased)
Door Adjustment
Bill - since you brought it up, how do you correct a twist? My driver door is flush top and bottom at the A pillar and at the rear bottom trailing edge but the top trailing edge is out by 1/8" +/-.
I remember seeing a documentary on the 1930's Ford assembly line with a technician (big white dude) using a block of wood and a hip check to adjust the fit in the opening. I'm somewhat reluctant and (under nourished) to try this so if anyone knows the correct procedure (other than eating more) to fix this I'd like to know.
Doug
Bill - since you brought it up, how do you correct a twist? My driver door is flush top and bottom at the A pillar and at the rear bottom trailing edge but the top trailing edge is out by 1/8" +/-.
I remember seeing a documentary on the 1930's Ford assembly line with a technician (big white dude) using a block of wood and a hip check to adjust the fit in the opening. I'm somewhat reluctant and (under nourished) to try this so if anyone knows the correct procedure (other than eating more) to fix this I'd like to know.
Doug
jcat
Member
I have pictures somewhere but BMW and most manufactures used big wooden mallets to align to doors.
jcat
Member
I have pictures somewhere but BMW and most manufactures used big wooden mallets to align to doors.
jmackro
Well-Known Member
Re: E9 door alignment
Bill:
I need to adjust my gaps, not the "flushness" of the door panels with the body panels. So, can you clarify two things:
- You are referring to the bolts that attach the door to the hinges, not the hinge-to-body, right? When these bolts are loosened, is there some play? That is, are the holes in the hinges oversized, or are the nuts floating? Or, do I need to add/subtract shims where the hinge attaches to the body to adjust the gaps?
- The two back bolts on my hinge-door are standard 13mm hex head, but the front/top one is some weird 12 pointed allen. Is this a Torx? Anyone know the type and size of driver that will fit it?
Thanks!
Bill Riblett said:
Bill:
I need to adjust my gaps, not the "flushness" of the door panels with the body panels. So, can you clarify two things:
- You are referring to the bolts that attach the door to the hinges, not the hinge-to-body, right? When these bolts are loosened, is there some play? That is, are the holes in the hinges oversized, or are the nuts floating? Or, do I need to add/subtract shims where the hinge attaches to the body to adjust the gaps?
- The two back bolts on my hinge-door are standard 13mm hex head, but the front/top one is some weird 12 pointed allen. Is this a Torx? Anyone know the type and size of driver that will fit it?
Thanks!
jmackro
Well-Known Member
Re: E9 door alignment
Bill:
I need to adjust my gaps, not the "flushness" of the door panels with the body panels. So, can you clarify two things:
- You are referring to the bolts that attach the door to the hinges, not the hinge-to-body, right? When these bolts are loosened, is there some play? That is, are the holes in the hinges oversized, or are the nuts floating? Or, do I need to add/subtract shims where the hinge attaches to the body to adjust the gaps?
- The two back bolts on my hinge-door are standard 13mm hex head, but the front/top one is some weird 12 pointed allen. Is this a Torx? Anyone know the type and size of driver that will fit it?
Thanks!
Bill Riblett said:
Bill:
I need to adjust my gaps, not the "flushness" of the door panels with the body panels. So, can you clarify two things:
- You are referring to the bolts that attach the door to the hinges, not the hinge-to-body, right? When these bolts are loosened, is there some play? That is, are the holes in the hinges oversized, or are the nuts floating? Or, do I need to add/subtract shims where the hinge attaches to the body to adjust the gaps?
- The two back bolts on my hinge-door are standard 13mm hex head, but the front/top one is some weird 12 pointed allen. Is this a Torx? Anyone know the type and size of driver that will fit it?
Thanks!
Bill Riblett
(deceased)
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 10
Re: E9 door alignment
The bolts fasten to a nutplate which floats within the door 'frame'. The door can move maybe 1/2" / 13mm in any direction in this plane. After removing the door for repairs, I found that the technique of putting the door in the door opening and then installing the bolts put the door in a good starting place.
I tried moving the hinge-to-body bolts years ago, trying to line up the four corners of the door, but couldn't make that work and had a tough time getting the door back to where it had been. So, I don't mess with those bolts these days!
If I had a situation where the top and bottom of the front of the door fit the top and bottom of the door opening, but either top or bottom stuck out at the back of the door opening, I think I would try using a Porta-power (hydraulic jack) to try to even things. But I don't think I would recommend anyone else doing that.
The bolts are as you describe and I think have always used Allen wrenches. However, I have gotten a bunch of Torx in recent years and may have used them the last time a couple of years ago. I don't know what BMW used!jmackro said:
The bolts fasten to a nutplate which floats within the door 'frame'. The door can move maybe 1/2" / 13mm in any direction in this plane. After removing the door for repairs, I found that the technique of putting the door in the door opening and then installing the bolts put the door in a good starting place.
I tried moving the hinge-to-body bolts years ago, trying to line up the four corners of the door, but couldn't make that work and had a tough time getting the door back to where it had been. So, I don't mess with those bolts these days!
If I had a situation where the top and bottom of the front of the door fit the top and bottom of the door opening, but either top or bottom stuck out at the back of the door opening, I think I would try using a Porta-power (hydraulic jack) to try to even things. But I don't think I would recommend anyone else doing that.
Bill Riblett
(deceased)
- Messages
- 733
- Reaction score
- 10
Re: E9 door alignment
The bolts fasten to a nutplate which floats within the door 'frame'. The door can move maybe 1/2" / 13mm in any direction in this plane. After removing the door for repairs, I found that the technique of putting the door in the door opening and then installing the bolts put the door in a good starting place.
I tried moving the hinge-to-body bolts years ago, trying to line up the four corners of the door, but couldn't make that work and had a tough time getting the door back to where it had been. So, I don't mess with those bolts these days!
If I had a situation where the top and bottom of the front of the door fit the top and bottom of the door opening, but either top or bottom stuck out at the back of the door opening, I think I would try using a Porta-power (hydraulic jack) to try to even things. But I don't think I would recommend anyone else doing that.
The bolts are as you describe and I think have always used Allen wrenches. However, I have gotten a bunch of Torx in recent years and may have used them the last time a couple of years ago. I don't know what BMW used!jmackro said:
The bolts fasten to a nutplate which floats within the door 'frame'. The door can move maybe 1/2" / 13mm in any direction in this plane. After removing the door for repairs, I found that the technique of putting the door in the door opening and then installing the bolts put the door in a good starting place.
I tried moving the hinge-to-body bolts years ago, trying to line up the four corners of the door, but couldn't make that work and had a tough time getting the door back to where it had been. So, I don't mess with those bolts these days!
If I had a situation where the top and bottom of the front of the door fit the top and bottom of the door opening, but either top or bottom stuck out at the back of the door opening, I think I would try using a Porta-power (hydraulic jack) to try to even things. But I don't think I would recommend anyone else doing that.
Fred,
It depends on the amount of twist and where it is.
As Bill points out, Karman ( body manufacturer) used shims on the E9. They are hidden inside the door.
I can speak about vintage Porsche metal and alignment ( Karman too, for the most part), which also went as far as using lead in specific areas for gaps and alignment. Now, we use all metal fillers and try to stay away from the lead with some exceptions. I have even cut the door bracing to fix a problem and then weld it back in the most extreme cases. 356s hoods are notorious for kinking since you fill the gas tank there. The usual fix is to weld a square tube jig in place after you've cut the bracing and weld back in new (unkinked) panel bracing. I just happen to be repairing one right now.
If you can describe the kink or twist and where it occurs maybe there's a suggestion.....
It depends on the amount of twist and where it is.
As Bill points out, Karman ( body manufacturer) used shims on the E9. They are hidden inside the door.
I can speak about vintage Porsche metal and alignment ( Karman too, for the most part), which also went as far as using lead in specific areas for gaps and alignment. Now, we use all metal fillers and try to stay away from the lead with some exceptions. I have even cut the door bracing to fix a problem and then weld it back in the most extreme cases. 356s hoods are notorious for kinking since you fill the gas tank there. The usual fix is to weld a square tube jig in place after you've cut the bracing and weld back in new (unkinked) panel bracing. I just happen to be repairing one right now.
If you can describe the kink or twist and where it occurs maybe there's a suggestion.....
I am reviving this old thread, because a) it is relevant to the original question and b) there was a question from @jmackro , which never got answered. I realize that, sadly, Bill passed away, but I’m sure others have faced that same issue.
My doors are a little too far backwards, so they are not closing well. So I need to loosen the hinges to door bolts to push it forward a few millimeters. But, as Jay pointed out, there is a weird looking 12 point torx like bolt at the top front. Size wise, it sits between a standard six point torx T40 and T45. So that brings up two questions:
1. Why are they using a different bolt there versus the standard M8 for all five other bolts? This undoubtably means that it serves some special purpose.
2. How the heck do you loosen that guy? Are there 12 point torx tips that fit into that strange size between 40 and 45 size?
My doors are a little too far backwards, so they are not closing well. So I need to loosen the hinges to door bolts to push it forward a few millimeters. But, as Jay pointed out, there is a weird looking 12 point torx like bolt at the top front. Size wise, it sits between a standard six point torx T40 and T45. So that brings up two questions:
1. Why are they using a different bolt there versus the standard M8 for all five other bolts? This undoubtably means that it serves some special purpose.
2. How the heck do you loosen that guy? Are there 12 point torx tips that fit into that strange size between 40 and 45 size?
It's an M8 triple square from memory, I guess they are like that due to a socket being too large to fit inside the opening.
Note that a triple square whilst outwardly similar is not the same as a 12 point bit as the angles are slightly different
Note that a triple square whilst outwardly similar is not the same as a 12 point bit as the angles are slightly different
Are they the same special bolt as in the brake calipers?
Nope.
The dimensions of the bolt is nothing out of the ordinary, just that the tool needed is a bit out of the ordinary. I guess more common over in Europe, lots of vws for instance use triple square stuff.
No reason why an equivalent bolt couldn't be found with an internal hex, if anything that'd be preferable as the less tools/sockets/bits needed to work on a car the better.
Thank you very much for that informative reply. Although I must question the part where you hypothesize that a socket is too large to fit in there. The hole in the door frame is much bigger there than it is in some areas where you are supposed to get a socket in for the trim. But no matter.
The question now is how do I get this guy out today without trying to find a place to buy yet another one time use tool..
An m13 socket scrapes on the door, you can you use an m8 bolt with 12mm head, known as a JIS bolt.
Just had to order this since I can't do anything until the original bolt is out
Thank you @nosmonkey
Thank you @nosmonkey
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