Dream on: $58,900???

What's a frankencoupe anyway?

BMW's and Porsche's are a bit unique in the world of old classics where tasteful modifications don't seem to hurt value as much as it would a Ferrari, Jaguar, or Mercedes.

This car hasn't had it's body hacked up with flares and wings. The interior looks correct. The engine wouldn't bother me too much as it's mostly period correct.

And ... about those pictures. Could it be the pics were taken near the end of the restoration, but before the window chrome was finished? Rather than nit picking at things you guess are not addressed, why not just give Mark a call and find out the real facts.

John
 
Guys,

i've sat on the sidelines for most of this discussion ... time to jump in. first, thank you Mark for working to seriously raise the value of e9coupes. having looked at some of the cars that Mark has purchased and currently has for sale ... he has put some serious work into them. i had a deposit on the sienna '74 that Mark bought for himself, and backed out because i didn't want to take on that much work. let me assure you, it was a straight car, but ... it doesn't look anything like what he bought out of new orleans. another thread on this forum suggested that somebody look at Mark's track record in the Lotus club. from what i've read, he seems solid. i still think its fair to comment on things for sale ... but lets not take it too far, just because he's in the business. shouldn't we focus on being constructive and save the super negative stuff to protect people from the rusted out junk that shows up for sale occasionally.

ok - just my $.02 + i'll get off my soapbox now...
 
59k car

I think I've seen this car for sale before about the time I was looking for mine about 8/9 mths ago. Can't remember exactly which site it was on but it wasn't 59k then. It was definitely lower but out of my budget...
 
I love this forum! Seriously. This is what makes a horse race. I am open to ALL serious offers on this car and yes, we plan on adding the chrome window trim. Unfortunately, as I did with the Fijord car, which is sold by the way, I shot photos before all was done. OK...... There are several other projects that are close to completion and I will wait to shoot photos until they are really ready. Another 3 E9's in the next 3 weeks or so. The idea is to have several at various price points and some that are very original and others that are tastefully done. Let's face it, some people like cars that are modified and other like them bone stock. These cars, very much like Lotus cars, lend themselves to be modified or enhanced in one way or another. That's why I love them so much! We have sold several that never even made it to our web site or any web site or auction site. Yes. The market is getting stronger every day. I think SCM is incredibly far off base with their estimates of what these cars are worth. I have sold more than they have auction results on and the good ones are selling for substantially more than most of the reported sales. They are worth what people are prepared to pay and just about everyone who commented on this thread is knowledgeable and knows the difference between a good one and one that NEEDS. You all know what's involved in a restoration. Where do you stop? And some excellent points were made on this thread and all comments are valid. This car may or may not be your cup of tea. If it is, give me a call and let's work out a deal. If it's not, don't fret.......I have others. Some are even bone stock!
 
Granted the term "Frankestein" may have negative connotations, but I use it in the sense that—in this case—the resulting restomod is something that never came out of the factory, and is essentially a new creature created by assembling disparate parts that were never meant to come together. Yes, a lot of work went into the car, and I can certainly appreciate that, and yes it wears an e9 skin, but does it feel like one or drive like one? For the time and money invested, I certainly hope not. I assume—at least in terms of performance—that it exceeds all the characteristics of a period coupe. Yet, that's not why I searched for and found my substantially original coupe. I wanted a vintage 1970s driving experience, not a 2012 one. (I have an e46 ZHP coupe for that...)

So, my question is this: We all love these cars, that's why we're here. Do we have a responsibility to preserve them? If you owned the last e9 would you transform it with contemporary technology and components into something that was faster, tighter, had better handling and braking, but was so far removed from the original expression that apart from aesthetics it was a totally different animal, or would you strive to maintain the originality because, as the saying goes, "Its only original once..."? Would you gut a pre-war Alfa GP car and drop a modern engine in it? Would you then have the same driving experience?

I would love to see this car hit $60K, but by that barometer then an original car, or a car restored to factory specs would be worth $100K in my mind.
 
$60K for a E9 is Great!!! Lens originality in my opinion is the best!

Unfortunately in the collector car world the E9 is considered the bastard stepchild that is addicted to rust... The price of collector cars Skyrocketing ar light speed! Two weeks ago at Emilia Island Classic cars were selling at prices that blew the roof off the building... A Porsche 550 Spyder estimated to bring $1.2 million sold for $3.85 Million Dollars! A 1956 Speedster sold for $290! Great news for me I have a Speedster...

It seems like every other classic car has jumped in value except for our Coupes...

If Mark can singled handedly bring the value of our coupes up Great! I was pissed because Mark got that green 73 3.0CS before I could do the deal... If he can turn the car for a $40K profit good deal...

Lens asked
"So, my question is this: We all love these cars, that's why we're here. Do we have a responsibility to preserve them? If you owned the last e9 would you transform it with contemporary technology and components into something that was faster, tighter, had better handling and braking, but was so far removed from the original expression that apart from aesthetics it was a totally different animal, or would you strive to maintain the originality because, as the saying goes, "Its only original once..."?

Lens I have one of the last Coupes, built in Dec 1974 and 10th from the last... It was my first E9, the car is an amazingly original Calif Car...
It has had necessary upgrades over the years due to defects in design like the head (which are very prone to cracking) was replaced in the early 1980s but everything else on the car is original... The car even has all of the smog stuff still intact and working... Back in 2010 when I bought the car EVERY Coupe guy I spoke with told me "Phuck Original" they ALL said "Junk the parade bumpers put chrome bumpers on the car then install a 3.5 liter and a 5 speed"... Being a vintage Porsche collector and part of that bunch of originality lunatics I was very conflicted... I bought a nice set of chrome bumpers and was ready to do a backdate on the car...

Then I remembered what I always tell other people

YOU ONLY GET ORIGINAL ONE TIME! I left the car bone stock and it will be shown someday in the preservation class as original... I have other Coupes and I will keep and/or put them back to as original as possible... That is why I buy all of the nice original E9 parts offered for sale...
 

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A really person question...

I mean, I went to electronic ignition, Alpina wheels (albeit 14"), and when refurbishing the wood I eliminated the center grill. DOes that take it too far from original? Where does one draw the line?

UUC short shifter? Not original but not visible? Changing the shift boot from black to red to match my red leather interior?

Stainless steel exhaust?

Grey handled screw drivers!?! (the horror)

I still think of my car as original in theme...
 
"It seems like every other classic car has jumped in value except for our Coupes."

There are plenty of collector cars that suffer from rust, yet they are restored without fear and quite a bit of gusto, and maintain their value. Unfortunately, in terms of public perception, BMWs fall into the aftermarket tuner world category, just like VWs. I believe this perception, along with owner self-denegration in some cases, devalues coupes. How can a car that is consistently cited as a great design remain stagnant in the collector car market?

I'm about to embark on a partial restoration of my '81 911SC—glass out, bare metal respray w/ Glasurit, backdated exhaust, and rebuilt, not upgraded, brakes. I have the opportunity to fundamentally alter this car, but I won't. I could make it a tribute car, I won't. In fact, its a ROW car and I'm going to do my best to return it to a 911SC that rolled off the factory floor and lived its life in Germany. FYI—I'm a museum exhibit designer, used to working with, in many cases, one-of-a-kind unalterable artifacts. I guess I see my coupe as drivable artifact...
 
but if you want to drive it...

The Jag club is nothing, if not obsessed with originality. The debates over color shades on oil filter housings would fill a book. Yet, what if you want to drive these old cars on tours and rallys? Yet, even there, unless you have an Alloy 120 or a C-type ... tasteful modifications that facilitate using these cars is accepted.

Let's say you had a BMW 327. Would you go with a period correct NOS set of brake shoes over having them relined by Porterfield with a modern compound? Would you recore the radiator with an extra row so it doesn't overheat in the height of summer? Would you add a coolant overflow (catch) tank so the car doesn't piddle on everyone's driveway?

John
 
Lens a 1981 911SC is a Terrible car... The 3.0SC engines only last 350,000 miles!

Lens why would anyone want a Porsche 911SC?

They drive and look great and they handle amazing! Everyone knows those damn 3.0 911SC engines are very unreliable and that if you constantly beat them and shift at redline they only last 200,000 miles ... :p

You are correct about the fact that RUST is an issue with almost every classic car. I am NOT bragging this is a true statement. During the past 40 years (yes I am old) I personally have owned just about every type of Vintage exotic car including but not limited to the following.

(500) 356/911 Porsches
(8) Vintage Ferraris (246GTS,330GTS, 365GTB Daytona, 206GT)
(5) Vintage Jags E-Types,XJS
(1) 427 Cobra
(50) Vintage Mercedes (280SL. 3.5 Convertibles, 450-560SLs 300SE Coupes/Converts etc)
(25) Muscle cars (Shelby GT500KR Convert, Chevelle SS454 Convert, Cuda Convert, Hurst Olds Convert, Buick GS 455 Convert etc)

Plus- Healeys, Alfas, MGs, T-Bird, and yes even a few BMWs etc etc...

I can say without reservation that while ALL of these vintage cars are prone to have rust issues not one of them has proven to be as BAD rust wise as our BMW Coupes... Unfortunately the word has spread and our Coupes have a HORRIBLE reputation in the Collector car community.

I remember back in 1979 I bought a 1971 2800CS... The car was a total rust bucket an absolute Flintstones Car... If there was water on the road my wifes feet would get wet... Now think about that for a moment... The car was totally rusted out and it was only 8 years old! Plus the car had been sitting in a Calif Body shop for about a year before I bought it so in reality it was only on the road for 6-7 years at the most and it was horribly rusted out!


Karmann built the bodies as they were designed. It was the engineers at BMW who were very remiss in their duties after the flaws that resulted premature rust were discovered in the 2000CS series...

Once the defective design issues that resulted in premature rust that destroyed both the body and suspension areas of the coupes was discovered something should have been done. A simple $.50 piece of sheet metal as a splash guard to prevent water and road debris from entering the rockers was not Rocket Science even in the 1960s... But the people at BMW did not give a SH!T if their cars lasted...

Stan,

I like 100% bone stock original... But tasteful "period" upgrades like wheels, steering wheel etc are OK because they can easily be reversed. In fact some period modifications are a serious plus... A vintage Nardi or and Abarth exhaust on a 356 are very desirable and are ultra valuable!
 
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I am glad Numbers matching means little to me. Period correct on the other hand is very important. The thing I value the most is original paint and lack of corrosion on any car. I'd like a Datsun 240-Z with original paint. Suspension and engine does not matter so much.
Coupes are undervalued because there are many Bondo filled E9's out there IMHO. I used to be into Corrados and went through 1/40th of the North American supply of 95's. (They only imported 84 with air bags). These cars seem to be worth very little. I just gave away my last stash of old Corrado parts to a guy who still has one and helped me solve the theft of my 2nd 95 Corrado yesterday. I think I will want another one when they are collectible. (The best car I have ever owned really)
 
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It's only logical that modifications to a collector car will serve to detract from its value for the simple fact that every modification serves to limit the number of potential buyers that the modified car appeals to. There are some exceptions to this rule for modifications that have become commonplace and widespread in their appeal (eg 5 speed in a 2002). The key factor being "widespread in their appeal".

The there are modifications like the air dam on this car fall in the category of modifications that clearly detract from value. To wit, one commenter referred to this mod as "butt ugly". That's at least one less buyer from the pool of potential buyers that this car will appeal to, simply because of the "butt ugly" front air dam modification. Ditto for all the other mods to this car, all of which reduce the pool of buyers and/or limit the value they would ascribe to this car (and the cost to them of reversing these mods).

Modifications also detract from value for the simple fact that some modifications are the result of a "path of least resistance" mentality, or more accurately, a "path of least cost" mentality in which the car's owner is unable or unwiling to source the correct factory components (either because of cost or availability) and therefore opts for something more readily available or lower in cost. How could mods borne from this mentality ever expect to command a premium? Not the way the world (at large) works.

I learned this lesson a long time ago with my second car, a '69 VW Bug that I modified into a street/Baja hybrid. Every dollar I put into modifications for that car seemed to reduce its value by about 100 cents, give or take. BTW: I sold it to buy my first BMW, a 1967 1600
 
Well I'm glad to see that the community is passionate about this point. That's a good indicator that people care about these cars, which more than anything else is necessary to keep the remaining ones running for years to come.

I've said many times that in my view the low-production CSLs are the cars for which originality matters, and if I had one of those it would be bone stock (or at least have only period parts on it). For the higher-production CS's and CSi's, unless you start with a very original car, my view is that there is no increased value to originality. In other words, if you're doing a bare-metal restoration you might as well do what you want. If you want a 1970s bone-stock car, great. And if you want (just to pick a random example) a beautiful fire-breathing street machine, that's great too. But the original car is not going to be more valuable in the market, unless you mean to the people who want an original car in the first place. Maybe in the long run in 50 years the prices on coupes will move to the point where a CS with matching chassis and engine brings a premium, but as Keynes said in the long run we are all dead.

Re the air dam on this car - almost the same one that's on mine by the way, although I don't run bumpers and I have the racing vents so it looks different -like it or hate it, it's actually period correct. (I personally don't really care for the normal CSL street air dam, but if I had a CSL I'd probably use it anyway.)
 
Agreed, if I had 327, I would probably want to make it safer and more efficient by today's standards, but I wouldn't yank the engine and put something else in ala the subject car which this thread is about. I wouldn't change such a fundamental aspect of the car.

"Lens why would anyone want a Porsche 911SC?"

I ask myself the same question sometimes! Its an emotional thing...
 
Well guys, I just cannot resist any longer weighing in on the state of the E9 and the discussion surrounding this car. In two days this post has drawn over 1,000 hits and 32 responses.
Think for a moment it is 1984 and your dad’s bone stock CS has just been handed down to you. You’ve got a few bucks and some knowhow and you want to make your CS something special. But wait, it’s under powered, plows in the corners like a bread truck, and generally looks a bit tired. So you do a little research and find that a 533 driveline fits, a Dinan suspension kit is available and you begin. The finished product looks very original but has a soul and purpose. Mission accomplished.
Is this car a Frankencoupe as some have suggested? I think not. The car has not been cut up to accommodate a Chevy V8 with faux fiberglass CSL flares, a Jag suspension and an interior from a 7 series. Think it through. This is a period correct car with period correct upgrades. Yes it sits sounds and performs differently. It was intended to. Some will note it does not have the correct screwdrivers. Does that screwdriver make it “The Ultimate Driving Machine”?
As for valuation I continue to be amused by the eyeball assessment through the eyes of a monitor. The market will ultimately decide this car and every car. The person, who actually looks under the hood, turns the key in the ignition, and drives this car outside of cyberspace will decide.
Collectable? Who knows the fate of this car or that of the E9 coupe? Yes, the market seems to be on the right trajectory and will continue for good cars. There are those that clamor for early “correct” Mustangs and there are those that prefer an Eleanor. I happen to like both but for different reasons and both will put a smile on my face every time. If you want “logical” buy a Volt.
 
I bought a car I loved. Always did. I did not buy a financial instrument. I am fortunate to have a retirement plan through my college and a long-term-care plan for backup.

I never looked to my coupe turn a profit. Nor do I expect to. I plan to leave my coupe to my daughter or it will be sold after I die and it really won't matter will it.

I bought it for its curves and wood and chrome and leather. My wife says I treat it like an aging starlet. And they usually don't turn a profit as they age do they.

Steve
 
I have a good friend that always says “there’s no ill wind that doesn’t blow someone some good”, he is in the marine salvage business. I have no regrets about depressed coupe & collector car prices, some 30 years after owning my Bavaria I was finally able to afford a solid coupe, not mint by any means but it has the original front fenders so I feel like I could have done a bunch worse. ~ John Buchtenkirch
 
Is a Dinan Stage IV suspension really period correct?

"...and what you have is a spectacular Vintage car that drives and sounds like a powerful contemporary sports car."

I guess this excerpt sums up my feelings. Spectacular, yes, but, after all the tweaking, is this e9 really a vintage car? I really don't think so because all the upgrades were installed to specifically "cure" the older technology inherent in any vintage car. Its a very appealing kit car because it provides fantasy fulfillment—modern components in a classic shape.
 
museum or garage

the question for me is, do you have a museum or a garage? if you want a museum piece, bone stock is the obvious choice. if you drive you car regularly, and like to drive it hard, then some carefully chosen mods result in a wonderful 'classic driver' - this is the route i've chosen. re value, i get offers to buy my car almost every time i drive it, and have had several unsolicited offers from members of this forum. i always say that if i ever sold my car it would be approx the same pricea as a new bmw coupe, and nobody has balked, in fact most have said they would buy my car at that price and to let them know if i ever want to sell.
 
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