electronic transistor ignition, useful ???

deQuincey

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hello, i have been told that some time ago, when our cars were driven in their days in the eighties, it was an electronic addition that helped the standard distributor to provide a longer life for the breakerpoints, and an smoother running of the engine

it was a small electronic box that included a transistor, you connect that to the coil and to the distributor

any advise on using this addition ?

do you know where to find this nowadays ?

thanks
 
hello, i have been told that some time ago, when our cars were driven in their days in the eighties, it was an electronic addition that helped the standard distributor to provide a longer life for the breakerpoints, and an smoother running of the engine it was a small electronic box that included a transistor, you connect that to the coil and to the distributor.
any advise on using this addition ?
do you know where to find this nowadays ?

At first I thought you might be asking about the "Bosch" transistorized ignition that was available on model E3's, E12s, E23s and E24s. http://www.realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?part=12141360887&showus=on&showeur=on&details=1 I do not believe these were available for the E9, but they could obviously be adapted to fit. They became standard on later models of many European cars, including Porsche, Mercedes and Lancia. These systems did not employ breaker points.

It now sounds as though you were really asking about "transistorized" Capacitive Discharge Ignitions or "CD." When the E9 was still new, CD Ignition devices were available to use in conjunction with the standard breaker point ignition. You can do your own research, but in short, they permitted a more reliable spark to jump larger plug gaps and fire leaner mixtures, which could be better for fuel efficiency and emissions. They also have the advantage of using the points to trigger the device and not to carry large currents, so the points did not suffer from metal transfer**. For a short while in the early '70s Porsche used some units from a company called Permatune on its 911.
http://www.permatune.com/T-ignition-Porsche-911E-os.html These devices are still available from a variety of sources: MSD, Mallory, Jacobs, Accel, etc.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/plasma3ignition.php




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**
"A conventional induction ignition creates a spark by applying electric potential (12 volts) to the primary side of the coil. The coil steps the primary potential up to as much as 10,000 volts and delivers this high voltage to the spark plugs. However, this "step up" process is relatively slow, and as crank speed (rpm) increases, the secondary voltage declines dramatically. This limitation was partially solved by the development of capacitive-discharge ignition (CDI) systems. Instead of applying 12 volts to the coil, a CD ignition increases the primary current by storing it in a kind of miniature battery called a capacitor. When this higher primary current is applied to the coil, the secondary voltage is dramatically increased.
The principal advantage of a CDI system is the ability to present a superior spark to the air/fuel mixture inside the combustion chamber, thus maximizing burn efficiency. The easiest way to get a bigger spark is to increase the spark plug gap size. However, increasing the gap distance also increases the voltage necessary to ionize the air/fuel mixture. And the resistance of the air/fuel mixture increases as the mixture is pressurized in the cylinder, requiring even higher voltage to spark across a plug. A CDI system provides the higher voltage required by the increased spark plug gap size, thus providing very intense spark.
A CDI ignition system can create spark potential as high as 37,000 volts. Most engines only need about 20,000 volts for reliable ignition. The stock system begins to 'droop' as the rpm goes up. At highway speeds, the spark voltage becomes more and more marginal, averaging about 18,000 volts. With a CDI system, the step up process is very fast compared to a conventional 12-volt induction. This assures a more consistent spark delivery across the plug gap, even at very high crank speeds (rpm)."http://www.vw-resource.com/cdi.html

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Back in the 1980's there were many companies marketing these aftermarket capacitive discharge ignition systems. As Mmercury wrote, they retained the original points to trigger the spark, but the current carried by the points was much lower.

Mmercury's post shows some of the popular aftermarket CD units of that era. My favorite was the Delta Mark Ten. There's one on ebay now at: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delta-MARK-...pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr While these things were state-of-the-art 30 years ago, today you would just install a Pertronix. But for a vintage look, perhaps an old-style CD unit would be just the thing.


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My favorite was the Delta Mark Ten.

I used several back in the day. But in my case, they were not as moisture proof as they claimed - especially when used in marine applications. I know of a few folks, including a long time Bavaria'ista that still use them.

Found it curious that they made "blanket" gap recommendations" .040" for Domestic and .035" for foreign "cold range plugs should be used for racing or extremely high speed operation."


Although the Delta Mark 10 may have been the most popular, there were others of similar design and cost, for example: the "Tiger500." Notice the claims made on the Archer product: "10-20% more mileage."

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Stevehose said:
Why would you want to keep the points?

Logically, you're certainly correct - these old CD igntions aren't state-of-the-art - they're just a colorful bit of automotive history. But, extending that logic, why would you use carburetors when EFI is obviously better? And, while we're at it, why would any rational person be fooling around with 40 year old cars?

Found it curious that they made "blanket" gap recommendations" .040" for Domestic and .035" for foreign

I suspect that was simply shorthand for recommending one setting for big, manly V8's, and a second setting for them little, furrin 4's and 6's.
 
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thanks for a lot of useful information

first: yes, jay is right, i want to maintain the points, i love them, probably i am wrong, but as long as i can find spares i would like to have them in my engine

then, yes this is the idea i had:

It now sounds as though you were really asking about "transistorized" Capacitive Discharge Ignitions or "CD." When the E9 was still new, CD Ignition devices were available to use in conjunction with the standard breaker point ignition

so it is a sound method as new-old as my car, that is nice !

i have found a tiny electronic kit that can do the job:

http://www.velleman.eu/downloads/0/illustrated/illustrated_assembly_manual_k2543.pdf

i will continue my indagations, but, what is your opinion gentlemen, can this be similar/equivalent ot the old TIGER600 or DELTAMARK10 ?

regards
 
Historical Bosch upgrade kits

Bosch themselves also produced "upgrade kits" for their distributors in the 80's. With these, you could upgrade your Bosch distributor to electronic ignition.

These came in two versions: the "TZ" (Transistorzündung) version, which let you keep your points; and the "TZH" (Transistorzündung mit Hallgeber) version, which included a hall sensor and eliminated the points. I am attaching a photo from one of these kits which I grabbed from the German E9 forum.

I have the TZH upgrade in my 2.5 CS. It was installed by the previous owner, and I have to say that I am very pleased with it.

Apparently, these kits come up from time to time at classical car shows, etc. Also, I remember that the webmaster of the German E9 forum mentioned a while ago that he might have one for sale.

Good luck with the upgrade,
Aurel
 

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what is your opinion gentlemen, can this be similar/equivalent ot the old TIGER600 or DELTAMARK10 ?

I'm sure the Velleman kit is similar to the old Tiger and Delta units of the 1980's, yes.

One thing to worry about: eventually, points will wear out mechanically. Their designers assumed that they would be replaced after at most 20,000 miles, since in normal operation they fail after that much use due to electrical pitting. While the contacts will last a lot longer if they are just switching a CD unit, the rubbing block and pivot still won't last indefinitely.
 
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I think the only transistors in my coupe are in the radio and maybe the turn signal circuit. Everything else is fuses or relays, and I am keeping it that way.

After the upcoming High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse attack by our enemies du jour I will be the only one driving around. The highways will be empty, cellphones won't ring, and parking meters in the city will be inoperable. Like an endless week-end. Even bills will stop coming. Neat.
 
not listening the apocalyptical menaces from our beloved prophet "A R D E n i u s", i have progressed in this little job:

bought a kit, and:

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remark: in case of ultraterrestrial pressence, a by-pass "back to initial settings" is prepared for a quick scape !

regards
 
originality and correctness

the transistorized way:

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in a 700-sport

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now assembled and working well

if you have already a pertronix do not continue reading this, but if not...

finally i got some time to connect and check:

provisional connections and support

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works fine, very nice, and if we believe the specs. long lasting points are welcomed

tomorrow we will see how it behaves at high rpm`s
 
Today we part ways. The work quality is neat as usual but the nature of the project is Sisyphean. Who cares if the points last longer when nuclear radiation damage is more likely than the points wearing. The red box may not survive steam cleaning of the engine bay, or even some coolant sprayed around.

This DQ masterpiece belongs in the Museo del Prado next to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Punishment_sisyph.jpg

PS: DQ, just giving you a hard time because we like you... and we did not even critique the switch with two ON positions.
 
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Today we part ways. The work quality is neat as usual but the nature of the project is Sisyphean. Who cares if the points last longer when nuclear radiation damage is more likely than the points wearing. The red box may not survive steam cleaning of the engine bay, or even some coolant sprayed around.

This DQ masterpiece belongs in the Museo del Prado next to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Punishment_sisyph.jpg

PS: DQ, just giving you a hard time because we like you... and we did not even critique the switch with two ON positions.

you are sharp as always !
yes, i am the reincarnation of Sisyph, ...a car mechanic Sisyph ! no rock, but a car instead...
lets see if it lasts for ever,....eternity ? what for ?
 
great writing up, dr. Kahan

very nice article:

File: TransIgn​
Simple Transistorized Ignition Retrofit for Old Cars 7/22/11

(C) Prof. W. Kahan Page 1 /2​
This is a Transistorized Ignition circuit to replace the OEM standard (non-electronic) ignition
using the original ignition coil and breaker points with modifications so minimal that a flip of a
switch suffices to restore the original ignition circuit, thus permitting electronic ignition to be
compared with standard ignition instantly at any time.​
No access is needed to the ignition coil’s

(+)​
terminal. The circuit is designed to relieve the breaker points of electric erosion caused by
heavy current, thereby rendering point adjustment unnecessary after the first 5000 mi. until over
50,000 mi., so that ignition performance does not degrade below its optimum as time passes. I
used this circuit for five years, 1969-73, in a car driven across the continent three times in all
weath

Tight grounds and clean points are crucial lest Q be destroyed. Under normal conditions the
circuit dissipates less than 3W.; still, Q and Zs should be clamped to a heat-sink in a waterproof
box mounted low in the engine compartment away from heat sources and vibration. Only
failure of switch Sw or capacitor C can disable both ignition modes. Install with fresh points!
Since point erosion is almost eliminated you may safely increase point dwell by up to 20% and
advance spark timing by 2° to retard rubbing-block wear and improve high-speed performance.
And widening spark-plug gaps by about 20% will improve low-speed running and starting.
• • • •
o FT]
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This responds to repeated requests for explanations of the foregoing circuit. Because I last saw it
in late 1973, after which the circuit was supplanted by a stronger capacitive discharge ignition,
what follows has to be based upon an old man’s unreliable memory. My cars were 1969 Peugeot
404s with automatic transmissions. I do recall replacing their Ducellier ignition coil with a
Lucas SA12, salvaged from a junk yard, to increase the voltage at the spark plug.
The circuit’s ground connections are crucial; the cases of Q and C must be connected to the
motor’s head and block and, after them, to the battery’s negative pole with the lowest practical
resistance, less than 0​
.05


W​
. The shield’s braid connects the circuit’s ground to the fixed contact
of the tungsten breaker points in the distributor. The resistance across clean points, when closed,
should not exceed about 0
.2


W​
. The circuit puts enough current through them when closed, and
enough voltage across them when they open, to keep them clean unless motor oil leaks into the
distributor and sprays around inside it.
When the points are closed, the base B of Q comes down within millivolts of the grounded
collector c of Q. Current from the coil comes down through Q’s emitter E and builds up to as
much as 7A, going almost entirely through collector c to ground. A small fraction of the coil’s
current, depending upon Q’s current-gain at near-saturation, flows from E through base B and
then through the points to ground. As the coil’s current rises, so does E’s voltage above ground,
but it rises to less than a volt. This pushes at most a few tens of milliamps through inductance L.
When the points open, L’s current generates a voltage that reverse-biases base B to speed the
cut-off of collector current. Diodes D prevent that reverse-bias from exceeding what Q can
tolerate. Meanwhile capacitor C absorbs the coil’s current for long enough to allow Q to stop
conduction. Then the coil’s current builds a rapid rise of voltage across capacitor C, emitter E
and, through base B, across the now open points. Zener diodes Z prevent that rising voltage
from exceeding what Q can tolerate from E to c. When that voltage rises high enough, at least
200V, the coil’s transformer action puts out at least 10 KV to a spark-plug selected by the
distributor, just as would happen if switch Sw had been set to Standard Ignition. After the
spark, oscillating currents between C and the coil are damped down by diodes Z.
The advantage over then Standard ignition of this Transistorized ignition is only that the current
through the points is reduced well below what would erode them by sparks’ action. The points do
get beaten down by banging against each other, and the breaker arm’s fiber rubbing block gets
worn down by friction with the cam in the distributor, but these effects slow down and become
negligible after about 5000 miles provided the cam is greased adequately but not excessively.
The points get work-hardened by beating against each other; the fiber block becomes smoothed
and slippery, saturated with grease. After 5000 miles I did adjust the ignition for longer dwell
and advanced spark timimg; these remained practically unchanged for the next 75000 miles
until, with the change to Capacitive Discharge ignition, I advanced spark timing a little more.
That stayed put for the next 40000 miles, after which the cars were retired because I could not

get exact replacements for the brakes’ master cylinders. Otherwise I would still be driving them.
 
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