Engine mixing water and oil after replacing head gasket

[eltonjohan]

Some pictures:

http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19835/mixing-oil-water-1
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19836/mixing-oil-and-water-2
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19837/mixing-oil-and-water-3
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19838/mixing-oil-and-water-4
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19839/mixing-oil-and-water-5
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19840/engine-in-place

 

[eltonjohan]

Some pictures:

http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19835/mixing-oil-water-1
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19836/mixing-oil-and-water-2
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19837/mixing-oil-and-water-3
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19838/mixing-oil-and-water-4
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19839/mixing-oil-and-water-5
http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/19840/engine-in-place

 

[bengal taiga]

I just noticed your latest post and it seems fairly obvious that you have covered most things. Suggestion re gasket placement was not meant to be misleading. I just did not visualize this specific gasket application. I do know that some gaskets can be placed/installed incorrectly, just not the M30's.

I hope you do not need to resurface the head, but from my experience with aluminum alloy heads, they warp the minute I get them off the car and stare at them under a bright light. Again, I hope you do not need more machine work, but I would not bet against it.

In light of Don's post regarding the preferred headbolt tightening procedure, you might want to ask your dealer or someone you trust for the final word. I would expect W&N should have a direct contact with the gasket manufacturer too. Then, there's always Jaymic in the UK.

For what its worth, I noticed another site that seems similar to the reference Don posted, but offers different information. See page 15 of http://www.bmw-m.net/TechData/torq/bmw_torq.pdf where it mentions M30 engine followed by 60nm, 20 mins, 80nm, 25 min warm up followed by . . . wait for it. . . "torque angle 35." If I had to guess, that final angle torque probably ends up putting your bolt torque near the 100 nm mark. But that is a guess.

Looking at you pictures, your engine setup and bay are impressive. I concur with your description of the gasket not being evenly compressed - at least by the silicone bead you highlighted. The oil relief holes look different than I remember them on the gaskets I have used (not recently) but the style you have is probably an improvement. Made me wonder if the gasket was correct. I guess it is not unheard of for a gasket to be defective from the factory. It might be interesting to measure the gasket with a micrometer.

Assuming the gasket was not defective, consider two possible conclusions. Either the head and/or the block deck could be warped OR you just did not get the bolts evenly torqued and/or torqued to the proper measurement. Failing to have the receiving threads in the block and and the head bolt threads spotlessly clean and the bolts lightly oiled may really be the cause. Chasing the threads and flushing them with carb cleaner, denatured alcohol or brake/contact cleaner followed by cotton swabs may just be the key. As someone mentioned, the threads in the block really need to be dry too, otherwise, you might get false or inaccurate torque readings.

Best of luck.

 

[bengal taiga]

I just noticed your latest post and it seems fairly obvious that you have covered most things. Suggestion re gasket placement was not meant to be misleading. I just did not visualize this specific gasket application. I do know that some gaskets can be placed/installed incorrectly, just not the M30's.

I hope you do not need to resurface the head, but from my experience with aluminum alloy heads, they warp the minute I get them off the car and stare at them under a bright light. Again, I hope you do not need more machine work, but I would not bet against it.

In light of Don's post regarding the preferred headbolt tightening procedure, you might want to ask your dealer or someone you trust for the final word. I would expect W&N should have a direct contact with the gasket manufacturer too. Then, there's always Jaymic in the UK.

For what its worth, I noticed another site that seems similar to the reference Don posted, but offers different information. See page 15 of http://www.bmw-m.net/TechData/torq/bmw_torq.pdf where it mentions M30 engine followed by 60nm, 20 mins, 80nm, 25 min warm up followed by . . . wait for it. . . "torque angle 35." If I had to guess, that final angle torque probably ends up putting your bolt torque near the 100 nm mark. But that is a guess.

Looking at you pictures, your engine setup and bay are impressive. I concur with your description of the gasket not being evenly compressed - at least by the silicone bead you highlighted. The oil relief holes look different than I remember them on the gaskets I have used (not recently) but the style you have is probably an improvement. Made me wonder if the gasket was correct. I guess it is not unheard of for a gasket to be defective from the factory. It might be interesting to measure the gasket with a micrometer.

Assuming the gasket was not defective, consider two possible conclusions. Either the head and/or the block deck could be warped OR you just did not get the bolts evenly torqued and/or torqued to the proper measurement. Failing to have the receiving threads in the block and and the head bolt threads spotlessly clean and the bolts lightly oiled may really be the cause. Chasing the threads and flushing them with carb cleaner, denatured alcohol or brake/contact cleaner followed by cotton swabs may just be the key. As someone mentioned, the threads in the block really need to be dry too, otherwise, you might get false or inaccurate torque readings.

Best of luck.

 

[eltonjohan]

Thanks again bengal taiga! I appreciate it.

I ordered a new head gasket from another company today.
I will check if I can find any warp of the cylinder head/ block and clear the threads thoroughly. If everything seems ok, firing up the dellortos again.
Keep your fingers crossed...

A strange thing though is that there were no leaking outside the engine from the gasket. I mean, if the gasket is not compressed it seems like there also should be leaking out oil/water along the gaskets outer edge.

 

[eltonjohan]

Thanks again bengal taiga! I appreciate it.

I ordered a new head gasket from another company today.
I will check if I can find any warp of the cylinder head/ block and clear the threads thoroughly. If everything seems ok, firing up the dellortos again.
Keep your fingers crossed...

A strange thing though is that there were no leaking outside the engine from the gasket. I mean, if the gasket is not compressed it seems like there also should be leaking out oil/water along the gaskets outer edge.

 

[jhjacobs]

I may be a bit off base here but that gasket does not look like it fits the engine. Usually a gasket will line up 100% with the metal to metal surfaces and I notice this one seems to be cover many of the critical areas but it is also appears to be covering areas that should not be covered and possibly not covering some that should be covered. I don't see how this would cause the problem you're having but it is suspicious.

 

[jhjacobs]

I may be a bit off base here but that gasket does not look like it fits the engine. Usually a gasket will line up 100% with the metal to metal surfaces and I notice this one seems to be cover many of the critical areas but it is also appears to be covering areas that should not be covered and possibly not covering some that should be covered. I don't see how this would cause the problem you're having but it is suspicious.

 

[eltonjohan]

jhjacobs - I was also scratching my head when looking at the gasket the first time. Hopefully W&N know their things though. I will receive a new gasket (other make) tomorrow and it will be interesting to see if it differs from this one.

 

[eltonjohan]

jhjacobs - I was also scratching my head when looking at the gasket the first time. Hopefully W&N know their things though. I will receive a new gasket (other make) tomorrow and it will be interesting to see if it differs from this one.

 

[bengal taiga]

that gasket does not look like it fits the engine. Usually a gasket will line up 100% with the metal to metal surfaces and I notice this one seems to be cover many of the critical areas but it is also appears to be covering areas that should not be covered and possibly not covering some that should be covered. I don't see how this would cause the problem you're having but it is suspicious.

I had the same initial reaction.

The holes that do not line up are to allow oil to return to the sump. I reckon there could be several reasons for placement of those passages. It might be a one-size-fits-all that works on most M30 engines, regardless of head or block differences. It could also be a means of reducing or redirecting the oil flow to the sump. This is pure speculation. Maybe, as with the smaller size of water jacket ports found in the newer head designs, the pictured gasket limits the oil from pooling toward the aft part of the engine and somehow interfering with the pistons 5 and 6. Regardless of the unmatched holes, a bead of silicone looks like it seals the perimeter of all oil passage/holes. If anything, this should still segregate oil from coolant.

 

[bengal taiga]

that gasket does not look like it fits the engine. Usually a gasket will line up 100% with the metal to metal surfaces and I notice this one seems to be cover many of the critical areas but it is also appears to be covering areas that should not be covered and possibly not covering some that should be covered. I don't see how this would cause the problem you're having but it is suspicious.

I had the same initial reaction.

The holes that do not line up are to allow oil to return to the sump. I reckon there could be several reasons for placement of those passages. It might be a one-size-fits-all that works on most M30 engines, regardless of head or block differences. It could also be a means of reducing or redirecting the oil flow to the sump. This is pure speculation. Maybe, as with the smaller size of water jacket ports found in the newer head designs, the pictured gasket limits the oil from pooling toward the aft part of the engine and somehow interfering with the pistons 5 and 6. Regardless of the unmatched holes, a bead of silicone looks like it seals the perimeter of all oil passage/holes. If anything, this should still segregate oil from coolant.

 

[eltonjohan]

The mystery continues. No warped cylinder head or block. I measured it yesterday. Seems perfectly straight.
I guess I just have to re-do it again with cleaned holes and oiled head bolts.

 

[eltonjohan]

The mystery continues. No warped cylinder head or block. I measured it yesterday. Seems perfectly straight.
I guess I just have to re-do it again with cleaned holes and oiled head bolts.

 

[Malc]

Make sure the locating dowels (small round rings) which help locate the head are siting true and are not too long, which can sometimes happen if the head has been machined at some point.

If the head is off inspect for any cracks in the casting, especially between the valves.

 

[Malc]

Make sure the locating dowels (small round rings) which help locate the head are siting true and are not too long, which can sometimes happen if the head has been machined at some point.

If the head is off inspect for any cracks in the casting, especially between the valves.

 

[hans3]

You're likely planning to do this--pressure testing the cooling system after the head is reinstalled (but before coolant is refilled) should highlight whether any leaks remain. You should be able to hear any hissing from the spark plug holes. Granted, this test will not ID any leaks when the engine is hot.

 

[hans3]

You're likely planning to do this--pressure testing the cooling system after the head is reinstalled (but before coolant is refilled) should highlight whether any leaks remain. You should be able to hear any hissing from the spark plug holes. Granted, this test will not ID any leaks when the engine is hot.

 

[eltonjohan]

New attempt yesterday with a new head gasket (Elring). It seems like it is working without any mixing now (have runned the engine for apprx 10-15 minutes)!!!
I can't tell exactly what caused the oil/glycol mixing last time but my guess is that the gasket wasn't compressed enough in the middle section.
This time I followed the instructions that came with the gasket instead of the user manual and used torque 70 Nm and then 35 degrees (+ 35 degrees when engine is hot).
I also cutted of the metal gaskets to the manifolds a bit since they might have interfered with the gasket.

Thanks for all help.

 

[eltonjohan]

New attempt yesterday with a new head gasket (Elring). It seems like it is working without any mixing now (have runned the engine for apprx 10-15 minutes)!!!
I can't tell exactly what caused the oil/glycol mixing last time but my guess is that the gasket wasn't compressed enough in the middle section.
This time I followed the instructions that came with the gasket instead of the user manual and used torque 70 Nm and then 35 degrees (+ 35 degrees when engine is hot).
I also cutted of the metal gaskets to the manifolds a bit since they might have interfered with the gasket.

Thanks for all help.