Frame Rails

Tundra

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I would appreciate advice, suggestions and wisdom from anyone concerning frame rails. First, a little background. I have a 1974 3.0cs I bought about 20 years ago. The seller should be arrested for what he sold it to me or I should be arrested for theft for what I paid for it. I have owned BMW's for close to 35 years. My first car was a Triumph spitfire. What a piece of you know what. While in college I managed to buy a 2002. I totaled it. I then bought a 1600, sold it and bought a Bavaria. I sold the Bavaria for a song, (if I only knew then what I know now). My next car was a 530i (78 i believe). While still owning this car I came across the 74 0cs. I always wanted a 3.0cs because I felt it was the most beautifull car ever made by BMW but couldn't afford it. It was a lot of money back then .I bought it on a lark and used as an everyday car for about 10 years although it already had some rust. After a few years I sold the 530 i and bought a 84 500 SEC coupe Benz which I still have. The BMW 74, coupe then sat in my garage for about 10 years starting it up for a drive every couple of months. I had the body of the 3.0cs redone already twice-not a total restoration- but pretty close at a "professional body shop"about 16 and 11 years ago. Both times, the rust came back after a year or so. I guess that's why it sat in my garage for 10 years. I am now ready to re-do it once again, a third time and hopefully the last. The difference is, is that this time I'm going to do it myself. This where your advice and suggestions come in.

I have already changed the floor panels and rockers about 11 years ago. Thay are not original. I got them off a 5 series I found in a junk yard, rented a welding machine and welded them on. They don't look great but they held up. To this day, there is no rust on the floor panels or rockers. Nevertheless, I intend to replace them with original panels and rockers. My immediate concerns however are the frame rails. They are totaly rusted from the rear (under the floor panels) to about where they curve up at the firewall. from there to the front of the car they look solid. I attached a link with pictures for all to see. (I never used Ficker so I hope I did it right.)

For those who have it, if you look in the 2 set blueBMW Repair manual ( the one that recently sold for over $700 on EBay), in section 41, pages 41-00-2 and 3, it clearly shows that to replace the front enf of the car you need to cut the frame rails at the firewall and force the new section into it. I don't need to replace the front end of the car, only the frame rails.

Has anyone ever done this as shown in the repair manual? Replacing both frame rails is doable but it would be a real pain as they are also welded on to the fender side in the engine bay. I have already received valuable suggestions/advice from Ed G and Malc. Any additional advice from them and anyone else would be truly appreciated.

The car still runs very well. Has original engine, transmission and clutch. The only engine work ever done ( while I owned it for 20 years) was a new alternator and starter. I would drive to California and back without hesitation after I change the clutch master cylinder. I just noticed a leak. I found a new one on e-bay for $50. It's being shipped from Beirut Lebanon for crying out loud, imagine.I may get a visit from Homeland Security asking what I'm getting from there.

Sorry for being long winded but I wanted to cover as much as possible. I promise to be short the next time.

Again, any help would be most appreciated.
I'm now going to try the link to flickr. There should be 24 pictures

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23826726@N08/2263625734/

Andre
 

wazza.csi

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3.0 Coupe frame rails

Hi Andre, I own a BMW parts company in New Zealand and could supply new genuine BMW frame rails Direct from Germany your cost Approx US $800 the pair + Freight If interested email me [email protected]
I am also willing to price anything else you may be looking for!
I am currently in the process of restoring my own 1972 3.0 CSI
 

Henrik

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Hi!

I got a 2800CS with a lot more rust than your car ??. My frame rails has almost disapeard (under the floor panels), but looks alright up at the firewall, just like your car. This part of the frame rails are no big deal to copy. It has no complicated curves or bends. I guess your local tinsmith's can make a pair for you out of 1,0 or 1,2 mm steel for a reasonable price.
 

Bill Riblett

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I would just splice in repair sections. Either make them or buy the BMW parts and cut off what you need. If it is just the bottoms of the frame rails, I would definitely just make patches. Use 18 gauge steel.

I would wait to do this until after you redo the rocker panels and floors so you are welding on a more stable platform.
 

Tundra

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Many thanks to both Henrik and Bill Riblett. Your suggestions and advice are very encouraging. I was considering of doing just that but not being a professional autobody guy I needed affirmation that replacing only the rusted section is a suitable alternative to replacing the entire rails. The rusted sections are only under the floor boards and therefore is the only thing they support. I'm going to attempt to removing the engine first- from the bottom- to give me more working room and see up close what else may be needed. From what I can see there are only 4 bolts holding the engine on the rails. I'll see if I can do it.
 

Malc

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Hi Andre
Taking the engine out from below is definitely the "easier" way, just make sure to check that you have disconnected everything.... and check again!
Yes it's the four bolts that hold the engine subframe to the car.
If you lift the car try to pick it up using the turret top holes, it's the strongest area.

I had a look at your pictures and I see what you mean about the rust. This is typical damage where the underseal, what there is of it, gets wiped out by the use of trolley jacks and drain holes become blocked.

Anyway Henrik and Bill are spot! on I would make up repair sections and not try and change the whole thing.
Another possible source for the bits you need is the E28 five series the chassis rails look very similar and you might find some "good" ones to cut out on a car in your local scrap yard!

HTH
Malc
 

Tundra

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Hello Malc
Many thanks for your posting. Another affirmation. Forgive me to ask a perhaps stupid question, but what are turret top holes and where are they located? I may know it under a different name. I intend to lift the car up from underneath using a jack. I also intend to pull the engine out with the manual tranny attached.

Andre
 

Malc

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Hi Andre,
If your going to take the engine and transmission out from underneath the car you need to get the body high enough to roll the engine, gearbox and subframe out from underneath the car.
Anyway to answer your question the turret tops are the top of the front suspension struts that bolt to the inner front wings (fenders). They are bolted on with 3 bolts 120 degrees apart. The hole there is what I refer to as the turret tops.
If your going to take the engine out from underneath then you need to consider the following. I may of missed something so I am sure others on this board will correct my mistakes! :wink:

1.. Disconnect all wires and hoses to the engine
2.. Disconnect the prop shaft (Drive train) from the back of the gearbox
3.. Disconnect Clutch hose to slave cylinder
4.. Disconnect reversing light switch wires and speedometer cable
5.. Remove exhaust
6.. Remove radiator
7.. Disconnect throttle linkage, servo vacuum line, fuel lines from engine, grounding straps.
8.. Disconnect Steering linkage to steering box, disconnect power steering hoses.
9.. Disconnect steering arms to front struts
10. Disconnect lower control arms to front struts
(I actually took the complete fronts struts off which means dealing with the brakes)
11. Now you need a trolley to take the weight of the engine and gearbox. I used an old lawnmower frame with bits welded on :roll:
12. Jack the car up place trolley under the engine/subframe/gearbox
13.. lower the car until some of the weight is taken by the trolley.
14. Unbolt the gearbox support and the 4 subframe bolts
15. Now you need to get the car high enough to roll the complete assembly out from under the car.

Now because I had removed the front struts and I have an overhead crane in my shed I was able to lift the body high enough

142ef0a416d5ea9e6a7d677b6dbeb9f6.jpg


Oh my Gawd :shock: was that 4 years ago!

The way I did it was to pass a strap loop through each opening in the inner wings and then round a block of wood which provided the required support... Make sense :?: hope so!

HTH
Malc
 

Tundra

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Thank you Malc. This will be very handy when I'm ready to do it in a few weeks.

Thanks again,

Andre
 

Henrik

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Frame rails again

Hi!

I have made a new pair of frame rails for my 2800CS since my last contribution to this forum.

As you may see from the photo, the patch was a challenge, but after a lot of thinking I landed on this model. Some welding on the rear end is necessary, but all together I am satisfied with the result.
The tools I used are a sheet metal brake about 36 inch wide and a good air nibbler (or similar).
Next project is front and rear floors. The front is the easy part, while the rear looks like a nightmare to me!

[Broken External Image]:http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk172/terramar-photos/183_8314.jpg
[Broken External Image]:http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk172/terramar-photos/183_8315.jpg
[Broken External Image]:http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk172/terramar-photos/183_8317.jpg
 

Tundra

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Wow Henrik. Great job. That's exactly what I need. Would it be possible for you to send me a copy of the cardboard cutout you did so I don't have to re-invent the wheel? I would gladly pay for the mailing cost. Also, see my posting under the topic of " an heir and a spare- two donor cars".

Andre
 

Henrik

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Thanks guys!

It's a pleasure making parts like this when you are aware what they would cost from a supplier.

Andre: send me your address and I,ll send you the patch, hopefully I don't need it anymore.

Henrik
 

BlauMitWeiss

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Very nice job Henck, very good craftsmanship...has anyone made the same patch kits for the 2002? I need the driver side .

kevin
 

germanbodyman

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There are a couple of things I would like to point out to Andre and Henrik:

You should make the frame rails out of 18 gauge sheet metal or for us European's in 1.2 mm. Where the new frame rail is welded to existing frame rail, make sure to put a sleeve inside the frame rail. The sleeve should be plug welded with 11/32 " or 8,5 mm holes. Don't just butt weld the old to the new rail, over timer the metal will have stress cracks beside the welds. Remember, the torque boxes are the strongest part of the car and the framerails work in conjunction with them.

I would also suggest to mark the floorpan where the new rail is getting weldet in place and remove the framerail afterwards. Than drill holes through the floor and clamp the rail back into place. Now you weld from the inside of the car through the floor onto the rail. The reason behind this is:
a) if you weld from underneath the car you weld the thinner gauge floor to the thicker gauge rail. The thinner floor melts sooner and you would have a lack of penetration in the rail.
b) always weld from the thinner part to the thicker as described in a.
c) nobody wants to weld under the car, weld from the top. Its easier and even a novice can produce some decent welds. Work smarter not harder.

Just my 2 cents

Martin

PS: don't forget to use a GOOD weld through primer and waxoil the snot of the inside of the rail.
 

Tundra

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Vielen Dank Martin
I had thought about the 'sleeve' part thinking that a weld alone would not be strong enough. I had not thought about welding through the floor rather than from underneath which is probably what I would have done. Thank you for your suggestions.

The Swiss in me will force me to make it PRECISELY as you suggested.

Andre
 

germanbodyman

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andre said:
I have already changed the floor panels and rockers about 11 years ago. They are not original. I got them off a 5 series I found in a junk yard, rented a welding machine and welded them on. They don't look great but they held up. To this day, there is no rust on the floor panels or rockers. Nevertheless, I intend to replace them with original panels and rockers.


Replacing both frame rails is doable but it would be a real pain as they are also welded on to the fender side in the engine bay. I have already received valuable suggestions/advice from Ed G and Malc. Any additional advice from them and anyone else would be truly appreciated.


We all probably know that Karman vehicles were always prone to rust and all the cars they ever built had a huge amount of body flex to them. Considering you are going to replace the rocker panels anyway, why not make the car a bit more ridgid? I have done this kind of work on a couple of vehicles and was always successful.


Here is a list of some modifications that make the car more rigid and are fairly easy accomplished:

-when you change the rocker covers put an additional reinforcement inside it. Even if its just an almost plain straight piece of sheet metal with some webbing beads in it, it does a good job.
-Extend your frame rails all the way back to the rear of the car, possibly where your subframe is mounted. Additional to that tie the frame rails to the rockercovers with 2 or 3 crossbraces (just some simple hat channels do the trick)
-If your going this route don't forget to put some crossbraces also in the tranny/drive shaft tunnel. They are a bit more complicated to fabricate but you could go to a sheetmetal shop and have them fabricated the parts for you.

Don't be to concerned about the vehicle weight, your only putting a few pound of sheetmetal to it, it is not that big of a deal.


Martin
 

Tundra

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Martin,

Thank you again for your great suggestions. I will follow them. Hopefully, this discussion will help others as well.

Regardes,

Andre
 
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