Front speakers

With the limited space available behind the dash speakers then, what are the options for cabinet vs port? Scott, you had mentioned creating some sort of cabinet behind the speakers to cut down on out of phase cancellation effect.
You're currently running some approximation of an "infinite baffle". The distance from the front of your speakers to the back is fairly long and circuitous, and the back wave will be substantially attenuated before it makes it around to combine with the front wave. This is especially true given the size of the dash speakers. Small speakers just can't push that much air. The maker of your planar speakers sells a small cup that fits on the back of the speaker. You can try that, but I suspect it will not change anything for the reason above. If you want to test this. pull the speakers out of the dash, and listen to them. The put them back inthe dish, and listen again. I suspect you will notice a significant improvement in dash vs out.

All of this enclosure business really mostly applies to lower frequency and larger speakers (lower and larger go hand in hand). I use 12 inch sub woofers in large sealed cabinets in my home system. This speaker sit behind my planners ones and fire toward the corners of the room, so in a sense the room walls create a huge horn. The bass is impressive, but that would be totally impractical in a car.

I suspect the best setup is to put larger speakers in the rear (parcel shelf or in the rear seat bulkhead), moderately sized speakers in the kick panels, and tweeter/mid range speakers as we have in the dash. The tweeters are highly directional, and neither of the two options for mounting (dash, or @rsporsche's clever ashtray solution) are ideal. In dash will destroy imaging (since it is all form a single point), and the ash tray mount will be so separate that the imaging will be confused (one ear will hear one thing and the other another).

In the end, it is a car. Sound is sort of an afterthought, and making it perfect is really really hard.
 
I have been watching this discussion with interest.

The only aftermarket speakers installed in my coupe are two small speakers to replace the perished mono speaker in the dash and a set of "undercover II" speakers on the floor of the back seat area (they can be tucked under the front seat as well). I replaced the original Blaupunkt AM/FM mono radio with a Retrosound radio which is okay I guess, but the entire set-up is really sub-par.

My coupe has never been cut up for speakers, the door panels and parcel shelf are uncut and I would like to keep it that way. I think the planar speakers that @e9Leveque is installing may be a nice option and I may well go down that route.

I am also intrigued by the tweeters in the ash tray that @rsporsche is doing. What are the options for the rear seat area since I will not cut holes in the parcel shelf? I have though about removing the original padding there and adding some surface mount speakers, but look forward to thoughts on other options.

I do not really listen to the radio at all, just need a Bluetooth option and have also been thinking about the installation of an Out of sight audio unit as recommended by Andrew and Chris and then installing a vintage Becker Europa that I have sitting on a shelf just to return to a more vintage look
Aww c'mon man.. don't you want your car to look like this? :p

IMG_5504.jpeg


I agree with you on most points. I am having those gaping holes welded up. I have speakers below the rear seats, and will do the in-dash thing (not sure if I will use my cone based design, or the planar one I did for @e9Leveque. I have brand new pristine kick panels door panels, and leather trimmed ashtrays that I refuse to cut into, so that's as good as the sound is going to get. If I don't like it, I'll step on the gas and mask it with the rip of my DCOEs...

Definitely thinking of the hideaway audio system and the retro look in dash unit that does nothing.
 
Poking around a bit more, the GRS site (the guys who make the small planars I used) don’t show any other sizes. But PartsExpress has a whole host of their other sizes, including 8”midrange tweeters and 10”. They also have the smaller ones I got with a sealed back, so perhaps since we are mounting into a hole rather that open air that would be better. Finally their prices are about 40% off the list price making it a far more cheaper option to do a little bit of experimenting. The two planars tweeters could be purchased for about $90 - I paid $85 for each one from GRS. Perhaps these could be options for other locations in the car given their very low profile.

 
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Poking around a bit more, the GRS site (the guys who make the small planars I used) don’t show any other sizes. But PartsExpress has a whole host of their other sizes, including 8”midrange tweeters and 10”. They also have the smaller ones I got with a sealed back, so perhaps since we are mounting into a hole rather that open air that would be better. Finally their prices are about 40% off the list price making it a far more cheaper option to do a little bit of experimenting. The two planars tweeters could be purchased for about $90 - I paid $85 for each one from GRS. Perhaps these could be options for other locations in the car given their very low profile.

Interesting!
Aww c'mon man.. don't you want your car to look like this? :p



I agree with you on most points. I am having those gaping holes welded up. I have speakers below the rear seats, and will do the in-dash thing (not sure if I will use my cone based design, or the planar one I did for @e9Leveque. I have brand new pristine kick panels door panels, and leather trimmed ashtrays that I refuse to cut into, so that's as good as the sound is going to get. If I don't like it, I'll step on the gas and mask it with the rip of my DCOEs...

Definitely thinking of the hideaway audio system and the retro look in dash unit that does nothing.
That is my point! I am fortunate that the original owner never cut it up.
 
I have been watching this discussion with interest.

The only aftermarket speakers installed in my coupe are two small speakers to replace the perished mono speaker in the dash and a set of "undercover II" speakers on the floor of the back seat area (they can be tucked under the front seat as well). I replaced the original Blaupunkt AM/FM mono radio with a Retrosound radio which is okay I guess, but the entire set-up is really sub-par.

My coupe has never been cut up for speakers, the door panels and parcel shelf are uncut and I would like to keep it that way. I think the planar speakers that @e9Leveque is installing may be a nice option and I may well go down that route.

I am also intrigued by the tweeters in the ash tray that @rsporsche is doing. What are the options for the rear seat area since I will not cut holes in the parcel shelf? I have though about removing the original padding there and adding some surface mount speakers, but look forward to thoughts on other options.

I do not really listen to the radio at all, just need a Bluetooth option and have also been thinking about the installation of an Out of sight audio unit as recommended by Andrew and Chris and then installing a vintage Becker Europa that I have sitting on a shelf just to return to a more vintage look
i haven't come up with a good idea yet for the parcel shelf ... but i'm working on it.
 
what would happen if you used a thin strip of planar speakers across the back of the parcel shelf - along the bottom of the windshield gasket ... or make a custom track shaped piece that would hold the speakers
 
Do you mean that they would be sitting upright along that back shelf? Might get some weird reflections with the window (highly reflective) coming down at an angle into the corner and parcel shelf below.
 
It might be helpful to review the physics of sound.

A 100 Hz sound wave has a wavelength of 3.43 meters (about 11 feet). A 15 kHz wave has a wavelength of 22 mm (about bit less than an inch).

What that means is that the placement of a speaker producing a 100 Hz tone is pretty much irrelevant in the small footprint of a car cabin. These large waves don't really reflect inside the car cabin, so where they ar e located isn' really that important.

This is why speakers under the seat, or in the parcel shelf, or in the bulkhead below the rear seats will all produce decent low frequency response (there is room for larger speakers there, and the placement is not too important).

Higher frequencies are a different story. Your ears are aimed forward, and size wise they are sort of in the ballpark of the wavelength of a 15 kHz tone. So, putting tweeters behind you is not likely tp produce much in the way of sound improvement. And where they are placed in the sound field is important, because your ears are separated by only a few wavelengths of these signals. Remarkably your ears can discriminate these differences in phase delay, and that is how you can determine the direction that a higher pitched sound came from.

Consider listening to thunder. The direction is generally pretty hard to discern. Now consider a guy across the street chopping wood. You can easily tell It is across the street, and almost instantly determine which house that sound is coming from. Thunder is a low frequency wave. An axe report is a high frequency wave. And localizing the source of higher frequency acoustic signals is easy for us humans.

What this means is that where you locate woofers and low midrange speakers is pretty much irrelevant. Where you locate high mid and tweeter speakers is critical. Too close, and the sound stage will collapse to a point. Too wide and the sound stage will just sort of disperse, with no imaging at all.

Of course a car is not a great listening environment anyway, so most off this doesn't matter, but, if I had to choose, I think I'd err n the side of too close rather than too far apart.
 
Do you mean that they would be sitting upright along that back shelf? Might get some weird reflections with the window (highly reflective) coming down at an angle into the corner and parcel shelf below.
i was thinking that they could be positioned on a slight angle (between the angle of the parcel shelf + rear window). not pointing up toward the rear window - otherwise you would be trying to bounce the sound off of the rear windshield.
 
So basically an open-air version of these triangular speakers copied below - have the planar portion as the speaker and then perhaps an angled “foot” that rests on the parcel shelf with the rear open.
IMG_9929.webp

Alternatively could have the speaker again facing forwards but the footing attached at inside bottom of rear windshield with some double-sided tape. May be worth just ordering two of the medium size 6” rectangular ones and seeing what works when hooked up. You can mock it up with cardboard but as Scott mentioned the acoustics are hard to predict.
Wonder too about any way to mount them on upper end of windshield between headliner and glass? Just brainstorming…they are so thin that may open up some options. For those of us with white would probably want to make the case white to hide it, but I seem to recall you are planning on a black headliner at some point?
 
I am not sure if Scott is pulling our leg, and of course the purists are shuddering, but one COULD imagine a much more low-profile version of this working. Not quite my style but perhaps better sound quality and less destructive than cutting into kick panels especially if it were done in some way that tucks into back of headliner rather than molded in like this one. There’s enough space back up there that I could tuck my third rear brake light so it could easily hold a support that would allow the planars to just hang down slightly. Brainstorming!
 
Poking around a bit more, the GRS site (the guys who make the small planars I used) don’t show any other sizes. But PartsExpress has a whole host of their other sizes, including 8”midrange tweeters and 10”. They also have the smaller ones I got with a sealed back, so perhaps since we are mounting into a hole rather that open air that would be better. Finally their prices are about 40% off the list price making it a far more cheaper option to do a little bit of experimenting. The two planars tweeters could be purchased for about $90 - I paid $85 for each one from GRS. Perhaps these could be options for other locations in the car given their very low profile.

Following this link and looking at the questions about this tweeter, I see that in the Q&A section it mentions that these are Chinese clones of the GRS products thus the lower price.
Another poster mentions mentions that he's had occasional quality issues, though the vendor was quick to send a replacement.
There's also a comment about using a crossover as these are designed to be used in a speaker cabinet with a midrange and woofer.
Have you considered using a crossover in your install to keep the lower frequencies out of the tweeter?

Overall, the reviews for these products are good. I'm considering getting them for my car.
 
OK, the revised cone speaker version of the baffle I did for JC is in. Fits really nicely! I'll go attach the speakers and give it a try this weekend.

The wood grille gets glued to the thin mounting plate and that gets held on with those pins.The oval section fills the existing oval speaker hole.

IMG_6342.jpeg
IMG_6343.jpeg
IMG_6344.jpeg
 
Following this link and looking at the questions about this tweeter, I see that in the Q&A section it mentions that these are Chinese clones of the GRS products thus the lower price.
Another poster mentions mentions that he's had occasional quality issues, though the vendor was quick to send a replacement.
There's also a comment about using a crossover as these are designed to be used in a speaker cabinet with a midrange and woofer.
Have you considered using a crossover in your install to keep the lower frequencies out of the tweeter?

Overall, the reviews for these products are good. I'm considering getting them for my car.
Aha, makes sense as to why they are cheaper and why they have options not available from GRS directly. While I wholeheartedly endorse using original products, in this case doesn’t seem that GRS offers anything except the small ones I used. And based on prior history with Chinese speakers, they actually were pretty good for the price. Worth a shot.
I will add that these are really tweeters rather than the single-speaker Alpine speaker that many (including me) used in the past. As such there may be even more benefit to having at least another pair of full-range speakers if not a sub elsewhere in the car. YMMV
 
I am not sure if Scott is pulling our leg, and of course the purists are shuddering, but one COULD imagine a much more low-profile version of this working. Not quite my style but perhaps better sound quality and less destructive than cutting into kick panels especially if it were done in some way that tucks into back of headliner rather than molded in like this one. There’s enough space back up there that I could tuck my third rear brake light so it could easily hold a support that would allow the planars to just hang down slightly. Brainstorming!
i was thinking of something no more than 2" high - a curved strip that included a couple of thin planar strip tweeters along the back edge of the parcel shelf ... or something that was worked into the C pillar panels (that might be a better idea). my 3rd brake light is one of @adawil2002 LED strips at the top of the rear windscreen.
 
I am not sure if Scott is pulling our leg, and of course the purists are shuddering, but one COULD imagine a much more low-profile version of this working. Not quite my style but perhaps better sound quality and less destructive than cutting into kick panels especially if it were done in some way that tucks into back of headliner rather than molded in like this one. There’s enough space back up there that I could tuck my third rear brake light so it could easily hold a support that would allow the planars to just hang down slightly. Brainstorming!
Pulling both legs!!
 
Better? I think the giant exterior speakers could rival the bat mobile look!! Of curse one wonders who the listeners are ...o_O
 

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