Fuel to the 'value' fire

MichaelP

MichaelP

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This post sort belongs on the now-4 page thread of a similar topic, but the chart belongs in its own league. It's a Sport Car Market chart that underestimates where the market seems to be headed on a few cars in particular.

A 'C' grade for CSLs? To wit:
"B grade: Cars that have something special about them, often technical innovation, style or competition provenance, but normally not all three...
C grade: Cars that have some inherent interest, but had few special or desireable characteristics."
:roll:

[Broken External Image]:http://www.thecreativeworks.com/SPORTSCAR.jpg
cross posted from www.bmw02faq.com.
 
Wish I could find a good 2002 Turbo for $500 more than a good 2002 Tii
:)
 
sort of reminds me of kelly's blue book stuff. Sounds logical, but not realistic for the real market of cared for cars.

part of the problem though is that BMW's in general, have yet to hit their stride of valuation for classic cars. The Barret-Jackson hysteria has been mostly about U.S. muscle cars. I don't know if there has been a similar craze for foriegn cars here, or BMW's in particular.
 
strange indeed, on the sidebar he uses a Honda NSX as an example of a D grade car. I would have a NSX in my collection in a hot second.
Did he include the M1 ,5,6 in the list ?
Seems like his personal taste list to me.
Even so I must say Bmw's on a whole seem to be of value to the Bmw fans only, not so mainstream as lets say cars of the musclecar era.Which of course makes us stand out from the crowd.

PJ
 
sort of reminds me of kelly's blue book stuff. Sounds logical, but not realistic for the real market of cared for cars.

part of the problem though is that BMW's in general, have yet to hit their stride of valuation for classic cars. The Barret-Jackson hysteria has been mostly about U.S. muscle cars. I don't know if there has been a similar craze for foriegn cars here, or BMW's in particular.
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It's called the market and it's very realistic. What's not realistic is expecting 40K+ for a solid 8-9 CS/CSI.

I do not know why valuation for a car, any car, is the predominant concern for E9 owners. You love the car you love because it is a great car. If the market doesn't match up with what you believe the car is worth then that is too bad but there has to be a significant demand (commensurate with the supply of good cars) for their to be that kind of valuation.

30K for a solid 9 seems to be what the market will accept for these coupes and that is just fine with me.
 
I find it fascinating how much discussion this topic has sparked. The value issue is a double edged sword - if the prices are low, we can enjoy the benefits of coupe ownership (and be able to afford it's upkeep) - if the prices are high we look it it as an investment. If tomorrow the value went up exponentially, insurance would skyrocket and many would be loath to take it out of the garage. I enjoy the car for what it is and don't fret about how the market values it.
 
B Grade: Cars that have something special about them, often technical innovation, style or competition provennance - but not normally all three.

I guess being one of the Automobile Magazine's 25 Most Beautiful Cars Ever, or winning Sebring in 1975, or the numerous GT Class Championships don't apply to the CS.
 
If what you're saying is true, then SCM should be considered a B.S. publication. Specfiic to the NSX:

- First production use of V-Tec, which EVERY manufacturer now has.
- Titanium connecting rods, and at the time, the highest naturally-aspirated specific output per-liter of any manufacturer.
- All-aluminum monocoque body/chassis.
- Etc., etc...

Just my opinion, but considering the NSX to be "D" grade is just stupid. Not to mention that there is an entire generation of Honda-faithful that are just hitting their stride as far as careers and disposable incomes are concerned...
 
If what you're saying is true, then SCM should be considered a B.S. publication. Specfiic to the NSX:

- First production use of V-Tec, which EVERY manufacturer now has.
- Titanium connceting rods, and at the time, the highest naturally-aspirated specific output per-liter of any manufacturer.
- All-aluminum monocoque body/chassis.
- Etc., etc...

Just my opinion, but considering the NSX to be "D" grade is just stupid. Not to mention that there is an entire generation of Honda-faithful that are just hitting their stride as far as careers and disposable incomes are concerned...
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VTEC is Honda's Variable Valve timing system. Every Manufacturer does not use VTEC but their own valve timing system, ie: BMW = VANOS.
The NSX was not considered a technological breakthrough or even a superior handling or driving car in it's day. Merely a fast Honda. SCM is a well respected publication especially for its prime purpose...determining the value of sports cars.
 
When I drive my CS to the local BMW dealer, and both staff and customers don't know what they're looking at, that, to me, is as eloquent a statement about why these cars do not, except among those in the know, have a stronger collector car status. Part of the blame has to fall at BMW's door for not fully respecting their heritage. Then again, BMW used to be the ultimate driving machine...

e9s are about subtle, understated design, and we know that can never, to a general audience, compete against over the top design.
 
B Grade: Cars that have something special about them, often technical innovation, style or competition provenance - but not normally all three.

I guess being one of the Automobile Magazine's 25 Most Beautiful Cars Ever, or winning Sebring in 1975, or the numerous GT Class Championships don't apply to the CS.
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Exactly! Automobile mag also declared it the 25th "Coolest Car" ever.

Personally, I would prefer it if the market value of the coupe sayed low -- it's the only reason I can afford to mess around in them. I'm just miffed at the C classification, which is, of course contradictory and inverse to my desire for the value to stay low....

I mean, given the B grade criteria, the coupe may not have been the most technically advanced car of its time, but R&T did suggest in 1971 that it was possibly the "Best Car in the World." On the 'Style' front, c'mon.. there aren't many cars as stylish as the coupe. How many cars made both of Automobile Mag's lists as "Cool" and "Beautiful?" And on the "Racing Provenance" front, with what car did ///Motorsport cut its teeth?

Some factory E9 racing milestones:

1970-1977 BMW competes in the European Touring Car series, winning five championships with the CS coupe.

1975 First of many art cars (Calder 3.5CSL) competes at Le Mans.

1975 BMW 3.0 CSL wins 12 hours of Sebring.

1976 The BMW 3.0 CSL wins the 24 hours of Daytona.[/quote]
 
Tripower, with all due respect: VANOS is nothing more than BMW's version of the lessons-learned with V-TEC, and every manufacturer with a product to be taken seriously has some form of variable-valve timing, albeit 10 years later... The first thing every manufacturer probably did regarding the NSX was buy one, and take it apart to figure out how Honda did it. I think the point is that the car is significant from a technological perspective, enough so to earn the NSX higher than a "D".

For Honda, it's obvious that being a first-mover on something as significant as a re-design of the valve-timing process of the internal-combustion engine has been significant, and has created a competitive advantage that Honda has ridden for quite some time.

Also, the NSX is not just a fast Honda-- Where you got that from I don't know. I have driven the NSX, and it is a very nice package. Like the e9, it is not for everyone, but that does not take anything away from the car's attractiveness and fitment of use/purpose. If anything, it's so good that it's not finicky enough-- Other than oil changes and the propensity for the NSX to wear off rear tires, you just drive 'em.

I'm not specifically a Honda fan, but I think you have to call the NSX what it is. My opinion is that giving the NSX a "D" rating is almost laughable, and undermines the credibility of the author and the publication.

Anyway, I digress... We're all entitled to our own opinions.
 
Tripower, with all due respect: VANOS is nothing more than BMW's version of the lessons-learned with V-TEC, and every manufacturer with a product to be taken seriously has some form of variable-valve timing, albeit 10 years later...
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Variable Valve Timing is the generic term. VTEC is Honda's VVT system. VANOS is BMW's VVT system and no it is not a carbon copy of VTEC. I believe that both of these manufacturers have respective patents on their respective VVT systems, in other words you are mistaken.
 
Getting hung on semantics isn't really worth discussing, so calling me wrong is fine with me; I'm not going to take the bait, and I don't really care.

Credibility was the point, and I think you're missing it...
 
NumbersJ, I agree, The NSX is NOT a "D" car, What it is I don't know but not a "D"

On the coupe-
It would apear to me that the SCM hasen't got a bloody clue!!
Surly the latest sales value of any car reflects what the markets paying!
(based on cond, age etc) $14500 for a top cond CS?- I don't think so Tim
not when one has just sold for $40k
 
It's entirely possible that SCM doesn't have a clue, and it's not really their fault-- So few E9's are publicly-traded that they wouldn't know. Really, I don't even know what my car's worth-- I guess whatever someone is willing to give me for it?

I don't know where SCM gets their data (if someone could clarify), but most valuation publications get their data from recent auction results. Since the recent private transaction(s) are not exactly out there for all to see, SCM probably doesn't see them at all, and it doesn't go into their database; thus, they are left to speculate.

It is worth mentioning that SCM doesn't even have the production figures correct on their valuation chart-- From Art's site, the actual number produced world-wide over the 3.0 CS range they are referencing is 7,322 vs. the 11,063 they show. Once again, not that it matters to me, but one would think that they would have their figures correct if they are actually to be referenced for valuation. At least that's what they taught me in grad school.

One would also think that SCM are impartial and simply compile data, but from their valuation criteria, that doesn't seem to be the case. Like the "25 Most Beautiful" article, SCM seems to categorize as they see fit. The difference that I see is that for the "25 Most Beautiful" article, Automobile Mag. sought the professional opinion of current auto designers that are in the know...

My thoughts are that, as long as the E9 stays under the radar, I can keep getting cheap parts from the local BMW dealer. Try that with your Ferrari 250 GTO...
 
SCM is a well respected publication especially for its prime purpose...determining the value of sports cars.


I think this statement really hits the nail on the head. Does SCM determine information, or reflect it? If it were not for the reporting of the muscle car craze, would SCM deem them collector worthy?

Clearly there is more than passive, c-grade value in coupes. The market we participate and maintain for cared for coupes reflect it. Who said so? We did...those of us who will only sell at a certain level. Apparently, SCM didn't talk to us. Murray was probably out driving the Bluemax. True, there is not widespread media affirmation for the passion that creates the price-point most us are familiar with. And thats ok, as previously stated it helps us enjoy our cars.

But let someone who doesn't already own a coupe try to buy my coupe for less than a lot more than C-grade, or Len's, or Michael's, or Murray's, or Kurt D, or Paul Cain's, or Dan Kuturov's...the list goes in the U.S. and overseas...but isn't too terribly long.

Demand can be a fickle thing. (Note the muscle car craze) Some arrive sooner at recognizing an aesthetic that others pay more for later. And since we already know about the supply....well I think its okay for coupe owners to have a grin on our faces while still enjoy being able to drive our cars.
 
It's entirely possible that SCM doesn't have a clue,
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Yeah, SCM doesn't have a clue because it's only what they do for a living.

and it's not really their fault-- So few E9's are publicly-traded that they wouldn't know. Really, I don't even know what my car's worth-- I guess whatever someone is willing to give me for it?

I don't know where SCM gets their data (if someone could clarify), but most valuation publications get their data from recent auction results. Since the recent private transaction(s) are not exactly out there for all to see, SCM probably doesn't see them at all, and it doesn't go into their database; thus, they are left to speculate.
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They have numerous sources for their valuation of vintage sports cars and they track cars far more rare and valuable than the E9. They are considered a respected authority in this area.


One would also think that SCM are impartial and simply compile data, but from their valuation criteria, that doesn't seem to be the case. Like the "25 Most Beautiful" article, SCM seems to categorize as they see fit. The difference that I see is that for the "25 Most Beautiful" article, Automobile Mag. sought the professional opinion of current auto designers that are in the know...

My thoughts are that, as long as the E9 stays under the radar, I can keep getting cheap parts from the local BMW dealer. Try that with your Ferrari 250 GTO...
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Talk about impartial. A subjective magazine article like "25 Most Beautiful"...you ask 25 guys on this forum to pick their 25 most beautiful cars ever and you would be hard pressed to find 3 that are common in all 25 lists.
 
It's not that they "do it for there living" its just they don't do it very well
Maybe they sould keep a closer eye on sales, If there going to publish a whole lot of facts and figures they need to make sure they get those facts and figures right.
The datas is not hard to get, a lot of it is right here on the internet
Like I said, surley the last sale of anything has a great bearing on current market prices
 
It's not that they "do it for there living" its just they don't do it very well
Maybe they sould keep a closer eye on sales, If there going to publish a whole lot of facts and figures they need to make sure they get those facts and figures right.
The datas is not hard to get, a lot of it is right here on the internet
Like I said, surley the last sale of anything has a great bearing on current market prices
Click to expand...

They seem to do just fine and are very well respected in their area of expertise. If you don't like their valuations then that's something you have to work through on your own.
 
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