General E9 questions

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Jimbodawg

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I posted a thread about wanting to buy a 3.0CS. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork wanting to sell me their cars. The advice I've had along the way - stay away from rust. All of these cars have rust. Should I end the conversation already? Are there more livable types/locations of rust? Or cheaper, easier fixes? Or should I just run away?
What about auto vs manual transmissions? Is one prone to failure or very expensive to maintain? What's the theory on sunroofs? Do they hold value or is it just another invitation for rust? Are speedometer/odometer issues difficult, they seem pretty common already!

Thanks!
 
Jim, my book has several chapters on my 30-year relationship with my E9, including where they rust, but in a nutshell:

--They rust up under the front fenders, and unlike most cars, you can't unbolt the fenders because the fenders are lap-seamed at the corners of the windshield. The rust may perforate first at the tops of the shock towers, but may not be readily visible because of the thick tar-like coating that's applied up there. The rust may perforate through the firewall. Take a flashlight, drop the glove box, and look forward and up, then do the same on the other side on the panel that exposes the fusebox and hood release.

--They rust, like any other car, on the floors and rockers, but what appears to be a rocker panel on an E9 is actually just a long wide section of trim held on by about two dozen little Phillips screws. No owner is going to let you remove this panel to inspect. If the car hasn't had them off in 40 years, the screws will seize, strip, and/or snap.

--They rust, like many other BMWs, on the rear shock towers, but because of that plastic "elephant skin" that covers the towers, you can't see. The elephant skin can be carefully removed, but it's 40 year old plastic and easily shatters into a million pieces, so, as with the rocker panel covers, few owners are going to let you pull off the elephant skins.

For these reasons, and others, E9s hide their rust (unlike 2002s which more or less wear it on their sleeve). I wouldn't believe any E9 was truly rust-free unless there were photographs of it stripped to bare metal with the fenders off.

If you see ANY rust, it's the tip of the iceberg. It's common to see the first perforations at the bottoms of the front fenders.

If you buy one with rust, factor it into the price big-time. There is no such thing as minor rust on these cars. It's all expensive. You can buy a car with rust, but make an agreement with yourself that you're going to keep it dry and drive it as-is. Unless you own a body shop and do your own work or have a brother-in-law for whom you helped hide a hooker's body, you're never going to come out ahead.

The manuals are generally more desirable, but transmission swaps are easy compared to rust. Sunroofs on older BMW are generally an invitation to rust because of the draining. Odometer issues aren't a big deal -- North Hollywood Speedometer fixes them for about $150 -- but the gauges are challenging to remove.

--Rob Siegel
 
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Jimbodawg said:
The advice I've had along the way - stay away from rust. All of these cars have rust. Should I end the conversation already? Are there more livable types/locations of rust?!
Click to expand...

thehackmechanic said:
If you see ANY rust, it's the tip of the iceberg. It's common to see the first perforations at the bottoms of the front fenders. If you buy one with rust, factor it into the price big-time.
Click to expand...

Jimbo: You have made a good observation: it's easy for the collective wisdom of the e9 board to say "stay away from rust", but the reality is that any 40+ year old car, built in limited production, with no rustproofing, is going to have rust. So what to do?

Rob's advice is good. To boil it down to one sentence: "Sure, all coupe's have some rust, but look for one with as little as possible". As Rob wrote, if you can see any rust from the exterior, that's too much. When you raise the hood, if there is visible rust where the fenders meet the wheel wells, that's too much. Ask the seller what rust repairs have been done - ask to see pictures of the repairs. If the guy responds "oh, this car has never had any rust", be skeptical. Paying a professional bodyman to do a pre-purchase inspection that evaluates the extent of rust, and the quality of previous repairs, is cheap insurance.

As Rob wrote, mechanical repairs are cheap/easy compared with bodywork.
 
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Jimbodawg - you should pick up a copy of Rob's book and read what he has written on buying an E9, it is good advice. Next to this place, its the best source I have found. Plus, its a good read.

I notice a couple of things about your posts that lead me to a few additional comments. Your questions on problem areas seem to emphasize expense (over difficulty or complexity) and you have not asked about parts availability. This leads me to believe you intend to rely on a mechanic to do most of the work on your car. If you are going to rely on someone else for every little thing that goes wrong with an E9, this may be problematic. First, it is not easy to find mechanics with the appropriate expertise to work on these cars. Have you identified somebody near you? Body work people who know how to properly do rust remediation, for example, can be difficult to find.

Secondly, you can go through Rob's "make it reliable" stuff, and even then with a 40 year old car things can and do fail. You need to think about your "infrastructure" to deal with unexpected failures. I've been working on cars since I was 15, and because I was broke I drove a series of cars that were falling apart as I drove them. I have some skills to fall back on if my cars break down. If you don't have these skills, relying entirely on the generosity of strangers and tow trucks is not the greatest, particularly when driving around with young children in the car. (Then again, maybe you live in a nicer part of the country than I do.)

Another point given that your kids are in car seats. How much time do you have to devote to a car? Maintenance and running back and forth to the mechanic takes time. I leased a series of boring reliable Japanese cars until my son was 12 in part for this reason (thereafter we got into working on cars together and my car hobby did not detract from my fatherhood time).

I bought a nicely preserved car, but if you read the thread I suggested to you earlier, I also have an 18 month to do list to go over the electrical system, change out all the rotted rubber, update a handful of older systems to far better alternatives, and ensure everything is properly lubricated. This would easily cost more than I paid for the car if I were paying some else to do it. Not all of this needs to be done to enjoy the car, but my point is even a well preserved car can require a fair bit of work.
 
Jim, all you need to know is in the two posts above + Rob's book.
Someone please tell us whether there is ANY truth to the following Automyth.

It all began at the Karmen factory where they assembled the shells and loaded them on OPEN rail cars for their journey to the factory. When they arrived at the factory they were stored outside! Since there was no word for RUST in the German Vocabulary at that time(I am really making this part up) they did not have to worry about it.
So since the rust started outside the Karmen doors there has never been a 100% Rustfree coupe. Right from the creation.
True??? Partly True? We will never know??
Steve
 
Confessions

Jim,

My car has rust.

I bought it in 2004 for $19,000 and it had rust then - most of which I knew about and was prepared to deal with or live with. It is appraised for insurance purposes today for $32,000 so obviously the appraiser didn't regard the rust as significant to the value of the car. I don't "show" the car and am more interested in it mechanically than cosmetically. The car was rebuilt, cleaned up and repainted 2000 and since I bought it is now chipped and scratched from 10 years of Canada but it is also rock solid and fun to drive which is what I value most.

The only significant rust was found under the asphalt sound mat on the driver side where the divider that separates the engine compartment from the wiper motor/HVAC fan box sits on the strut tower. This will get fixed when my welding skills are up to the task. I encourage any and all to have a look under their sound mats if original - a classic water trap from Karman/BMW.

The car had a sunroof - the result of a butcher job in the mid 80's - that I have sealed in place after removing the rear mounted motor and all the running gear. The drains from the sunroof opening are another classic f****up from Karman/BMW. I have a replacement skin that will finish the job when my welding skills.....

At some point, the car will get a DIY (bare metal where necessary) to deal with any/all rust I find. The roof skin will go on, all my alterations will get finished and it will get a decent respray. If it ends up as a solid 5-10 footer visually I will be content but it will be.... nearly rust free.

So there you go. It ultimately comes down to what you want the car for.

If it's an investment you want then triple (at least) your budget and stick it in a bubble. If you want a car to drive on the sunny days to Car's and Caffine and drive to occasionally experience what an eyeopener this car was when it came out, then double (at least) your budget. If you want a car to drive anytime and anywhere that will give 99% of the public whiplash as you drive by and that you can maintain, modify and obsess over than somewhere between $15 and $25,000 might get you there if you Take Your Time and look at everything. You'll know the right one when you see it. You might be lucky and find near perfect - I can think of two in the last 5 years in that price range.

Don't be afraid of rust as long as you know where it is.

DC

ps
I recommend you look at Vrand and Sven's DIY resto sites so you know what to look for.

http://www.larsenarchitect.com/BMW/Restoration.html
http://www.vranedom.com/

pps
If we learn from our mistakes, does that mean I have to make all of them?
 
If I was selling you my car I would let you take the rocker covers off. When I bought mine the company selling it put it up on a hoist and went away for a couple of hours. I Took the trunk apart, removed the elephant skin shock tower covers (One cracked …dang) took off the rocker covers. I had a good flashlight and very light fridge magnet to check for Bondo and I stopped in Home Depot and bought a Ryobi snake cam to peer up and into things before I started.

Buying a Coupe is all about having time and access to do a thorough inspection. Last thing I did was drive it. The expensive part is the body. If you have to you can buy a discarded
535I donor car and replace quite a lot of the running gear.
 
well said.

decoupe said:
Jim,

My car has rust.

I bought it in 2004 for $19,000 and it had rust then - most of which I knew about and was prepared to deal with or live with. It is appraised for insurance purposes today for $32,000 so obviously the appraiser didn't regard the rust as significant to the value of the car. I don't "show" the car and am more interested in it mechanically than cosmetically. The car was rebuilt, cleaned up and repainted 2000 and since I bought it is now chipped and scratched from 10 years of Canada but it is also rock solid and fun to drive which is what I value most.

The only significant rust was found under the asphalt sound mat on the driver side where the divider that separates the engine compartment from the wiper motor/HVAC fan box sits on the strut tower. This will get fixed when my welding skills are up to the task. I encourage any and all to have a look under their sound mats if original - a classic water trap from Karman/BMW.

The car had a sunroof - the result of a butcher job in the mid 80's - that I have sealed in place after removing the rear mounted motor and all the running gear. The drains from the sunroof opening are another classic f****up from Karman/BMW. I have a replacement skin that will finish the job when my welding skills.....

At some point, the car will get a DIY (bare metal where necessary) to deal with any/all rust I find. The roof skin will go on, all my alterations will get finished and it will get a decent respray. If it ends up as a solid 5-10 footer visually I will be content but it will be.... nearly rust free.

So there you go. It ultimately comes down to what you want the car for.

If it's an investment you want then triple (at least) your budget and stick it in a bubble. If you want a car to drive on the sunny days to Car's and Caffine and drive to occasionally experience what an eyeopener this car was when it came out, then double (at least) your budget. If you want a car to drive anytime and anywhere that will give 99% of the public whiplash as you drive by and that you can maintain, modify and obsess over than somewhere between $15 and $25,000 might get you there if you Take Your Time and look at everything. You'll know the right one when you see it. You might be lucky and find near perfect - I can think of two in the last 5 years in that price range.

Don't be afraid of rust as long as you know where it is.

DC

ps
I recommend you look at Vrand and Sven's DIY resto sites so you know what to look for.

http://www.larsenarchitect.com/BMW/Restoration.html
http://www.vranedom.com/

pps
If we learn from our mistakes, does that mean I have to make all of them?
Click to expand...
 
My car did not have much rust but it also hadn't been turned over in 20 years (thank god the previous owner had a climate controlled garage after dipping it in 86). I had (ok still don't) no automotive skills so relied on a local mechanic and this forum. I bought my coupe over three years ago and have only driven it ten miles.

My relationship with my mechanic is that I buy all of the parts and he assembles them. I have now purchased about 80% of the parts on the car and am now fairly skilled in how to source and evaluate items. I have also learned to take full advantage of this forum and the kindness of its members and do my best to reciprocate when I can.

If you really want to fall in love, go visit peter (coupe king) and drive one of his cars. They are way out of my budget but I promise you will buy the next one you see and enjoy it. I myself am looking forward to driving mine in a few more months with a bespoke b35 and 5 speed. As most of the guys here have mentioned, the process of restoring/fixing/optioning the car is almost as much fun as the pure joy of driving them (yes, even if it's only 10 miles every 3 years). I have a 7 and 4 year old and on our maiden trip to cars and coffee, my son finally blurted out, "why do all of these people keep staring at us!"
 
Is this the rusty car support group thread? My coupe has some rust. I keep it dry, and I'll get to it sooner than later. The rough stuff has been dealt with. I'm looking at you spare tire well.
 
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