Group 2 CSL Batmobile

[JFENG]

Owners who own an original E9 racecar will never race it, it's worth way to much.

I dont think it’s fair to make that generalization. Sure there are plenty of replicas but there are also plenty of originals racing.

Jim and Sandy McNeil race multiple multi-million dollar vintage race cars (Cobra csx2156 #10, John Surtees’ old GTO, the first 904, etc) , Peter Greenfield was out in his 1933 Alfa Monza driving enthusiastically at 9/10th last Friday, and he usually brings his 1935 8C out to at least a couple times a year. Until he sold it a few years back Willen van Huystee raced his pre war Alfa 6C. Until a few years ago Tom Jaycox was still racing his Jag C-type. Grewel was out in his Grand Prix winning Cooper formula car last fall. Tony wang still runs his TR and GTO’s, and I think Lulu still races their 1959 birdcage Maserati. None of these are replicas.

 

[BMW Pete]

I will add my 1.5 pennies on the subject at hand and no doubt upset some, while not my intent, merely how I personally feel.

Many great cars are raced and I for one am thankful that the owners do give us all the experience and opportunity to see them, but replicas are diluting the experience for us all........An extremely example would be, would you rather go to France and see the real Mona Lisa or would your artists friends interpretation of it give you the same experience?

I will make one thing very clear, replicas are fantastic, if its your passion and you can never own real one, please knock yourself out, enjoy yourself, but always and I mean always declare it as such.

Unfortunately, we have people who 'play' with words and I can remember a long time ago somebody calling their beautiful replica of a true Motorsport car "a sister car to the real CSL" it was nothing of the sort and I called it out at the time, this is just one example of course, but there are many others.

A real car is the body/chassis it left the factory with, the one that actually raced in the day. Engines and components break and it is extremely unusual and I mean seriously unusual for a race car to have its original engine, unless it did a very few races -a block and a head a season, maybe even two heads would not have been outlandish, the most we can often hope for is it has the engine it stopped racing with. So what about the real cars that have had things changed, if it's the real chassis/body no problem and as with Old Number One Bentley the courts have decided,. While there is not much in that Bentley that left Crewe in the day, its continuous evolution as that car, namely Old Number One, means it is the original car.

Chris mentioned dilution of the real cars and yes these replicas do dilute the opportunity to see the real cars race for us all. Just think if you have a $1m-$2m real Motorsport CSL and Joe blow has his $100k replica with many modern components in the same field. Original CSL has no chance, its not "man o man" into a corner, its modern components against 50 year old technology and please do not tell me the modern replicas don't "stretch" the technical rules. I was at Spa Classic when a replica CSL claiming it was real (it wasn't) was blasting past 935 Porsches and literally eating the two real CSLs there for breakfast, it didn't even sound like a CSL on full song.

In summation, I would like to see replicas have their own grids, it would still be fun, the owners could still race and be racing against like minded folk with the same risk profile, but risking ones original $1m- $2m car into corner with an enthusiastic driver in a replica becomes less and less appealing over time and therefore does dilute all of our opportunities to see the real cars turn a wheel in anger

Well as the early e9 race cars were all 2800CS prior to the factory 3.0CSLs and much later Batmobiles, it always seems a bit strange to me to call any of the standard 2800CS or 3.0CS coupes a CSL or even a Bat as they were modified later from a standard chassis. This one is a CSL obviously but it was never a Bat. And as Peter G. would agree, the tributes tend to dilute the bloodlines of the true CSLs and Bats. The ad doesn't mention the RHD source either.

 

[craterface]

@BMW Pete, @bfeng, I was able to run the Modena Cento Ore last year in the regularity section, and I was able to see European style vintage racing first hand. It's a bit of a smashup derby. Many racers were in aero bodied E types, 911 "RSRs" and early Ford Escorts, that probably had only a few nuts and bolts in common with their genuine forbears. I am not sure I would want to take a genuine period race car on track with them. It was hugely entertaining to watch, and these guys all paid the entry fee that in turn provided a nice profit for Peter Auto. But they are very aggressive and there was definitely more bent metal (and plastic or fiberglass flares) than you would see in Monterey. I could definitely see the appeal of racing an e9 Bat replica over the real thing in this setting.
So what is real vintage racing? Monterey is heavy on the vintage, while other events are heavier on the "racing".

 

[JFENG]

I think Pete got it exactly right.
(1) Real cars with real cars.
(2) Replicas get their own grids
(3) heavy resto mods ... well that’s complicated.

I participate in (1) and would quit if it were inundated with replicas. Doesn’t matter if they are replicas of $30k cars or $30M cars. Part of the romance of vintage racing in the USA is the respect drivers have for the cars (and hence the 13-13 rule). Part of the attraction is of running wheel to wheel with important historic race cars and drivers (like Doc Bundy). Sounds like I shouldn’t ever vintage race in Europe or UK. Or I'm simply not rich enough to not care about the cars.

Here is one that kind of defies categorization: it’s from mostly real parts but not originally a real car (Driver P. Giddings, RIP).


We have had a fair number of cars like this in our club, and entry is on a case by case basis (eg depends on the driver’s attitude).