Help - vacuum connections

Stevehose

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I have the Zenith carbs with two vacuum ports on the driver side and one on the passenger side. the front carb has the brake booster hooked up to the larger of the 2 driver side ports, the port next to that goes to the air cleaner T. the passenger side port of the front carb is capped (??). Should this port connect somewhere?

Also, look at these 2 drawings, they seem to indicate 2 different connections for the distrib vacuum connections, one has the front port going to the valve then the rear carb passenger side port, the other appears to have it going to the T at the electr valve then to the dashpot/driver side carb port. Which is correct, and is the large or small vacuum port on the driver side used for distrib vacuum? Thanks.
 

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MMercury

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I have the Zenith carbs

Maybe this will help.

Note when fitting:
1 To distributor - advanced control
2 To distributor - retard control
3 To fuel return valve
4 To air cleaner housing



11100002_z.jpg



Some of the vacuum hose routing is intuitive if you recognize which type of vacuum a given device is designed to use. In short, distributors with vacuum retard pots, and brake boosters are typically fed by below-throttle-plate "manifold-ported" vacuum. Above-the-throttle-plate-ported vacuum typically feeds vacuum advance pots. Never having made a study of the subject, I suspect that vacuum routing became more complicated or there were variations for the various North American Carb'd Models - in an attempt to comply with progressively tighter emissions standards.

There is no obvious reason to tap both carbs for the same vacuum signal - if one port is sufficient to trigger or operate a vacuum-controlled device. The point being that capped port on one of the carbs is not atypical.
 

Stevehose

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Since mine have 3 ports per carb and doesn't look like that one pictured (a common problem with the service manuals), then obviously the brake booster port is a below throttle port, I guess the one next to it is an above port (and should feed the dist advance), what would be the small port on the opposite side of the carb? If dist retard needs below throttle vacuum then this port should be such? Other diagrams have no capped ports, what do others here with stock zenith routing look like? Thanks.
 

MMercury

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The picture is of the carb base and shows 4 ports. Some confusion may exist as the port for the brake vacuum is usually found somewhere on or near the intake manifold and not off the carburettor. See No. 2 below:

61101001_z.jpg


Manifold vacuum can be obtained anywhere downstream of the throttle plates and, in many instances, is found directly off the manifold - as well as the carb. For example notice the three ports that are part of the manifold (not carburettor) diagram below (no. 2, where no. 14 attaches, and nos. 5/6).

hth

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deQuincey

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sorry

unable to help, old (1971) european configuration does not include some of the devices I can see in your drawings, and also considers only the distributor advance control (not the retard), so only one pipe is going to the distributor pot

see this scheme of your version

s1mhys.jpg


I can send you the pdf file by MP, if you whish

regards
 

Honolulu

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Let's try another way to explain things.

Vacuum downstream of the throttle plates is a function the throttle plate opening. Closed throttle = high vacuum (relatively). When you open the throttle, air rushes into that space and vacuum drops.

In my US version '73 production, the brake booster is connected to the large port on the forward side of the rear manifold.

Distributor advance needs to be based on manifold vacuum. A port upstream of the throttle plate will be less affected by throttle opening, thus is not the port to use. You can identify whether a port is above or below the throttle plate with a vacuum gage. In your diagram, the distributor ignition advance connection is at 2 o'clock (connection "F") and the retard connection is at 6 o'clock (connection "S") on the advance pot (top left of your diagram).

If you connect the distributor advance to the wrong port, you'll have very little advance and though the engine will rev well without load, it won't have any power when loaded (AMHIK). On my car, I connect both manifold vacuum ports and the distributor advance in a common tube. Not really necessary but no harm in it, either.

As I live where the temperature varies by only 15 degrees, I have disconnected and remove the heat-sensitive apparatus (heat-sensing valve, bypass, switches, vacuum motor) and my unused vacuum ports (retard ports on each carb) are closed with a bit of rubber tubing blocked by a screw.
 
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Stevehose

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I think I have the vacuum all set, but when I spray carb cleaner at the base of the carbs, the idle goes up so it looks like I have leaks?
 

MMercury

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I think I have the vacuum all set, but when I spray carb cleaner at the base of the carbs, the idle goes up so it looks like I have leaks?

Yes. Classic symptom of a vacuum leak (ported or manifold. :wink: )
 

JhwShark

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Is the idle change only associated to the joint/mount between the carb and manifold? on both or just one?

What symptoms occur when spraying other vacuum connections? If none then you may only need to replace the carb/manifold gaskets or confirm the mounting plates of either/both are true/straight.

Are all mounting bolts for all associated components at proper torque?
Jon
 

MMercury

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Distributor advance needs to be based on manifold vacuum. A port upstream of the throttle plate will be less affected by throttle opening, thus is not the port to use. . . . In your diagram, the distributor ignition advance connection is at 2 o'clock (connection "F") and the retard connection is at 6 o'clock (connection "S") on the advance pot (top left of your diagram).

I can appreciate how, and possibly why, you might modify your particular setup to take advantage of maximum initial advance by tapping into manifold vacuum, but I do not believe that follows the stock North American (emissions) design.

I used the word "typically" when describing the vacuum sources for vacuum advance and retard, because a distributor advance mechanism can be designed to take advantage of either vacuum source. With the advent of emission controls, later distributor advance mechanisms tended to be fed via ported vacuum. In the case of the twin Zenith fed M30, I respectfully submit the vacuum advance is also fed by ported vacuum.

Take a gander at Sr. DeQuincey's diagram and notice that the "F" - aka the advance side of the distributor pot is connected to a port above the throttle plates. This provides vacuum advance not at idle, but as soon as the idle is cracked open. This is borne out by looking at the vacuum advance graphs found in the manual. Excepting the 001 "csi" distributor, the vacuum advance increases or curves upward with mm Hg. This seems consistent with above throttle ported vacuum which increases from off-throttle. If the advance were fed via a manifold signal, the maximum signal would be received at idle and taper off as the throttle were opened.

picture.php


This debate will likely continue since not all carburetors and distributor advance mechanisms are alike. (See e.g., http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/ported-vs-manifold-vacuum-advance-scenario-151264.html and http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/vacuum_advance_tech/tuning_vacuum_curve.html)

From memory, Ford used what they described as a "Loadomatic" distributor that did not have any centrifugal advance and made use of ported vacuum signal at the throttle plate. If I recall correctly, the signal increased at WOT due to a venturi effect. This was from a one barrel carb.
 

Stevehose

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When I spray carb cleaner around the base and linkages the idle increases. This happens on both carbs. Another symptom is it appears the idle mixture screws don't affect idle speed much if any at all when turned. Must be an effect of base leak? Thanks.
 
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61porsche

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Zeniths

Steve,

It would be very high odds that both carbs are leaking; possible, but not probable. Go back over everything you can tighten, or has vacumn. I know you have a low mileage coupe, but from you've posted don't understand what emissions devices you have now that can effect the carbs. ( EGR with ss piping?, solenoid valves for advance and retard?, fuel return?, Air cleaner warm up controls?) The EGR, if malfuctioning open it would definately effect both carbs and lean them out.( Leak)

If you're chasing things down you have to get and stay in idle RPM. First linkages ( clean and greased), then adjustments. By each carb and then together.

Since you're dealing with fixed jets, everything else is small adjustments. It is absolutely critical that the air/ throttle plate screws first get you in the ballpark with best running/ highest vacumn, not the idle mixture screws. They are used for small adjustment. If the small adjustment isn't working, it's usually because the basic fuel/ air mixture is off or the circuit is plugged. ( Throttle plates opened from normal or fuel level is off or dirt.)

When chasing down air leaks, you almost have to be surgical with the carb cleaner as it tends to go everywhere including back down the carb throat. Suspected leaks around the throttle shaft can also be base gasket,plate gasket, choke cover gasket(s), secondary vacumn can attachment gasket or diaphram.

Leaks around the cold start box are usually from the wrong gasket sequence and not loosening the bottom bracket so the banjo bolt is snug.

Walker kits are known to have incorrect gaskets for the venturi's ( wrong size), cold start box ( wrong thickness), and mis indexed choke diaphram; so be on the look out for this.

Hope this helps.. keep the cards and letters coming.
 

Stevehose

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I appreciate this and all suggestions, tomorrow I will delve into this and post my exact emissions setup and other observations. Shouldn't I have my throttle plates as close to shut as possible while at low idle - this would achieve the most vacuum, yes? If I need to get rebuild kits where is the best place, Mesa? Thanks for responding to my letters from the front!

Steve,

It would be very high odds that both carbs are leaking; possible, but not probable. Go back over everything you can tighten, or has vacumn. I know you have a low mileage coupe, but from you've posted don't understand what emissions devices you have now that can effect the carbs. ( EGR with ss piping?, solenoid valves for advance and retard?, fuel return?, Air cleaner warm up controls?) The EGR, if malfuctioning open it would definately effect both carbs and lean them out.( Leak)

If you're chasing things down you have to get and stay in idle RPM. First linkages ( clean and greased), then adjustments. By each carb and then together.

Since you're dealing with fixed jets, everything else is small adjustments. It is absolutely critical that the air/ throttle plate screws first get you in the ballpark with best running/ highest vacumn, not the idle mixture screws. They are used for small adjustment. If the small adjustment isn't working, it's usually because the basic fuel/ air mixture is off or the circuit is plugged. ( Throttle plates opened from normal or fuel level is off or dirt.)

When chasing down air leaks, you almost have to be surgical with the carb cleaner as it tends to go everywhere including back down the carb throat. Suspected leaks around the throttle shaft can also be base gasket,plate gasket, choke cover gasket(s), secondary vacumn can attachment gasket or diaphram.

Leaks around the cold start box are usually from the wrong gasket sequence and not loosening the bottom bracket so the banjo bolt is snug.

Walker kits are known to have incorrect gaskets for the venturi's ( wrong size), cold start box ( wrong thickness), and mis indexed choke diaphram; so be on the look out for this.

Hope this helps.. keep the cards and letters coming.
 

61porsche

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Carb Throttle plate opening

Open to produce the intended first (initial) mixture ratio which effects everything (primary mixture) thereafter.

The factory talks of balance but doesn't go so far as to say why- it's optimum mixture (best burn) by the use of air (plate adjustment) and fuel (fixed jets).

It becomes some what apparent in the manual when balance is discussed in detail at 2.5-3k rpm, faults such as secondary plates hanging open more than the adjustment, or why the balance caps cover both barrels. By design, both barrels are slightly open.

Kits- pays to shop. Yes, Mesa and others. I suggest you get the major kit in case you need the throttle plate gasket or diaphram. I you're really feeling lucky- one major and one minor. For ref. I've recently paid $20-40.

But before you decide to rebuild them- determine why, with certainty, and which one needs the most work.
 

deQuincey

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I bought the major kit from classicgarage
it was perfect !, received in bilbao only 1 week after order
kit components were superb (according to my carb-mechanic)
regards
 

Stevehose

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Here's what I have found after yanking off the carbs and manifolds last night:

1. Whoever wrote the tech manuals either has never actually worked on the cars or is a sadist or both, the simple wording "remove the four nuts to the carburetor base" actually means spend all evening finding four different combinations of wrenches/ratchets to access the nuts, contort yourself in unimaginable ways, get smeared in 38 year old grime, and curse like a sailor.

2. Anyway, I have the stainless steel piping EGR setup (see pic), the vacuum nipple on it was not hooked up to anything, should this go to the passenger side carburetor vacuum connection which had been capped by someone? If not then where does this hook up to? Do these go bad? My air cleaner only has 2 nipples for vacuum tubes, nothing else there. One tube off the 4-piece vacuum tube connector goes under the front fender to a charcoal cannister or something under there, 2 go to the air cleaner, and one goes to the carb.

3. In removing the carbs and intake manifolds I noticed a few of the nuts were loose, likely the result of time and contributing to air leaks. I ordered new manifold gaskets, large rebuild kits, and the thin coolant hose from Mesa this am (Spence is very helpful and knowledgeable-is he on here?). I am going to clean and rebuild everything fuel related, and make sure all is tightened up, and replace all the coolant hoses down there while into this because they are accessable now, I cant imagine the PITA of getting to them with the manifolds on, especially that little 5" hose that connects to the block in the back off the rear choke housing.

4. To take full advantage of the slippery slope I am on, I am considering replacing the starter, for the same PITA reason as stated in #3.

What I would find helpful at this point is any advice on rebuilding the carbs and the proper connection of the egr valve and emissions/vacuum system. I've got the distributor piping figured out. I also have a wire needing identification under a separate post here.

Thanks for everyone's help on this board, it's much appreciated and minimizes the uncertainty when undertaking this and keeping the old girl running.

It would be very high odds that both carbs are leaking; possible, but not probable. Go back over everything you can tighten, or has vacumn. I know you have a low mileage coupe, but from you've posted don't understand what emissions devices you have now that can effect the carbs. ( EGR with ss piping?, solenoid valves for advance and retard?, fuel return?, Air cleaner warm up controls?) The EGR, if malfuctioning open it would definately effect both carbs and lean them out.( Leak)

If you're chasing things down you have to get and stay in idle RPM. First linkages ( clean and greased), then adjustments. By each carb and then together.

Since you're dealing with fixed jets, everything else is small adjustments. It is absolutely critical that the air/ throttle plate screws first get you in the ballpark with best running/ highest vacumn, not the idle mixture screws. They are used for small adjustment. If the small adjustment isn't working, it's usually because the basic fuel/ air mixture is off or the circuit is plugged. ( Throttle plates opened from normal or fuel level is off or dirt.)

When chasing down air leaks, you almost have to be surgical with the carb cleaner as it tends to go everywhere including back down the carb throat. Suspected leaks around the throttle shaft can also be base gasket,plate gasket, choke cover gasket(s), secondary vacumn can attachment gasket or diaphram.

Leaks around the cold start box are usually from the wrong gasket sequence and not loosening the bottom bracket so the banjo bolt is snug.

Walker kits are known to have incorrect gaskets for the venturi's ( wrong size), cold start box ( wrong thickness), and mis indexed choke diaphram; so be on the look out for this.

Hope this helps.. keep the cards and letters coming.
 

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MMercury

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I have the stainless steel piping EGR setup (see pic), the vacuum nipple on it was not hooked up to anything, should this go to the passenger side carburetor vacuum connection which had been capped by someone? If not then where does this hook up to? Do these go bad? My air cleaner only has 2 nipples for vacuum tubes, nothing else there. One tube off the 4-piece vacuum tube connector goes under the front fender to a charcoal cannister or something under there, 2 go to the air cleaner, and one goes to the carb.

Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve (No. 9) permitted recycling a small amount of exhaust into the engine for reducing Oxides of Nitrogen. After enough time, the valve would tend to gum up and stop working - rendering the entire system as dead weight. EGR valve lifespan was even shorter if leaded fuel was used. At the same time, the port off the exhaust manifold (No. 4 and 5) that fed the EGR system would plug solid and the filter (No. 3) (usually located adjacent to and under the exhaust manifold would plug up, rust or cease to flow.)

Odds do not favor your EGR system as being functional - with or without any vacuum. Translation: hook the vacuum plumbing up for looks and don't concern yourself about it unless the valve remains open - causing rough running. M
any remove all traces of the system from their cars as they serve little "useful" purpose. On the other hand, if your car is covered by smog regulations requiring the equipment, or you prefer originality, leave things alone.

hth

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61porsche

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EGR, carbs, etc.

Steve,

1A. Agreed. The long standing myth regarding the engineers was that they had to have had contests on how complicated could they make simple things hard.

2A. Your attachment:

a)The EGR would have ported vacumn. Passenger side, front carb. BUT, your picture is missing the ss pipe from the exhaust manifold on the other side of the engine. Is it there? If not, you're faced with a decision that many have had. Eliminate or restore? Eiminate would mean you need to salvage the fittings for the intake manifold and plug or cap them. The factory actually had caps/plugs for a while. You can silver solder the fitting closed or cut the ss piping below where it bends down, crimp and silver solder. There's a chance that a hardware store could have the cap /fitting but it's metric. It should be obvious that any leak here is major. Once this is determined then the extra vacumn connections become clearer.

b) Loose nuts- Probably what was the leak. You didn't say yet what you thought was leaking or areas other than base? The spring washers are partially to blame. New ones help. Or decide if you're doing non oem with real split spring washers or nyloc nuts. Maybe a dab of locktite blue. Regardless, torquing the fasteners because of access is difficult, you have to be methodical in regards to leaks, and count on torqueing it again as in when you're tuning.

c) Choke hose- has to be long enough to rotate the choke cap to proper marking and goes on the fitting closest to the block. US cars use the second mark- longest hose.

3) Wise choice on new starter.

4) Tips- If you can describe what you thought were leaks and more related to what was loose; it might help.

The carbs are in sections, each with a function/purpose. There are parts that should not be taken apart unless there's a definate problem as there are parts which are broken easily, expensive, and down right hard to find unless you have spares. It also means you can fix just the section that has a problem if your carbs are clean.

Cleaners- not what they once were. Acetone is a choice.

Kits- many extra parts/ gaskets for different versions. Save your old gaskets and closely compare.

If you thought it was the throttle plate/ thick gasket/ bowl section- a mating flange leak might be visible in the dark with a flashlight shining in the barrel. Under the manifold gasket are 4 screws not visible if the gasket stuck to the carb. These loosen; just like the others you found.( Seen it twice so far on factory, never been touched carbs.) The replacements are not hard and compress a lot. Torque and retorque.

Happy to keep up the tips...just keep naming the symtoms.
 

Stevehose

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If it doesn't affect performance I don't care if it works or not, I prefer to keep the original look so I will hook it all back up, if it runs crappy I will eliminate it, I don't need it for an inspection. Thanks.


Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve (No. 9) permitted recycling a small amount of exhaust into the engine for reducing Oxides of Nitrogen. After enough time, the valve would tend to gum up and stop working - rendering the entire system as dead weight. EGR valve lifespan was even shorter if leaded fuel was used. At the same time, the port off the exhaust manifold (No. 4 and 5) that fed the EGR system would plug solid and the filter (No. 3) (usually located adjacent to and under the exhaust manifold would plug up, rust or cease to flow.)

Odds do not favor your EGR system as being functional - with or without any vacuum. Translation: hook the vacuum plumbing up for looks and don't concern yourself about it unless the valve remains open - causing rough running. M
any remove all traces of the system from their cars as they serve little "useful" purpose. On the other hand, if your car is covered by smog regulations requiring the equipment, or you prefer originality, leave things alone.

hth

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