How much is the concept of "stock original" worth in a coupe?

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chapa

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The reason I ask is that I bought what I thought was going to be a parts car for MY coupe (both '71 2800cs) several years back. Mostly for the interior and chrome bits. I bought it from the original owner(!) who took a factory delivery, no less. Being a damp-garaged coupe that was seldomly driven in its later years, I thought it would be a rusted hulk under all the Ziebart he applied when he brought it to the states. As I slowly started removing the interior and trunk bits, I realized this car was in beautiful shape for a rust prone model. Nicer than mine, actually.

So now, even though I covet the chrome, the interior, the trunk vinyl, and probably make money on parting it out, I'm thinking I might sacrifice all that (my coupe is no original beauty) if the market puts a premium on "originality", as I suspect.

Obviously, this is not "off to the crusher", but I could certainly use the parts that I bought it for, and sell what's left.

Interested in input.

jim
 
Post pictures of both and we will tell you which one to keep and which to part.

Stock is always a great starting point.
 
Your question isn't clear - please begin by defining what "worth" means to you.

If you are hoping for an answer like: "Oh, your car would be worth $31,258.44 if you installed the parts from the '71, but the '71 is worth $33,745.81 as-is", then I sure can't help you. Even when you provide the photos that Arde requested, it's pretty tough to report on that kind of "worth" with any precision.

If by "worth" you mean how much enjoyment you will get out of one coupe or the other, then it depends on how you will be using the car. If you regularly enter concours that have a preservation class, then it sounds like the '71 could be a candidate for some awards. On the other hand, if you are looking for a car you can drive every day, then your first coupe (described as "no original beauty") might give you more worry-free driving.
 
I agree that some additional information would be helpful. Are you trying to determine which car to keep, or whether your should scavenge from your parts car? I haven't seen many 'survivor' cars listed, so it is difficult to determine if they warrant a premium. Hopefully some seasoned members will chime in. I'm no expert, but I do follow sales rather closely, and this is what I have gleamed so far in the non-concours-level marketplace for cars that aren't 'survivors'.

  • Service records are more important than previous owner count
  • Rust-free body is more important than drivetrain condition (body work is difficult/costly, engine swaps are easy/inexpensive)
  • US vs Euro doesn't play much of a role in price
  • Interior condition is more important than drivetrain condition (upholstery and dash restoration work is difficult/costly, engine swaps are easy/inexpensive)
  • Driveablity and performance may be desired over originality (ex: 3.5L engine, 5spd Trans, added AC), which is why drivetrain condition is less relevant
  • A modified car that includes original block, original wheels may not command a higher price, but may sell better
  • Matching numbers and drivetrain originality have limited value, and drive-train swaps often boost sale price
  • FI is a desireable upgrade that doesn't hurt value
  • Weber down drafts are an acceptable replacement for Zenith, but Zenith often considered better when tuned correctly
  • Weber side drafts are a desired upgrade
  • CSL chin spoilers are an acceptable upgrade
  • CSL rear spoilers, chrome arches, splitters etc. are less desireable for cars that aren't a registered CSL (tribute cars tend to have an artificial premium associated with them, as the parts alone don't cost that much).
  • Few owners are interested in maintaining original 'patina'. They want fresh paint and the assurance that no cancer resides under the surface.
  • Factory original paint colors are important, but color swaps are commonplace
  • Interior upgrades (leather, carpet, steering wheel) are commonplace
  • Leather > Cloth
  • Manual > Auto
  • Small Bumper > Diving Board Bumper
  • Original Seats > Aftermarket Seats (excluding Scheel)
  • Exlcuding drivetrain, period correct is important
  • 18" Wheels are frowned upon, unless targeting a specific enthusiast
  • 17" Wheels are advised against but have a following
  • 16" Wheels are desired, good Aplina clones are accepted/desired
  • 15" Wheels are liked
  • 14" Wheels are respected, and desired if factory-correct, or CSL Alpina upgrade
  • Paint bubbles or visible rust in lower front fenders puts people on high alert
  • Shock tower/inner fender rust turns people away
  • Rocker rust turns people away
  • Floor pan and tire well rust is considered manageable
  • RHD CSL's sell for less than LHD CSL's

Some may disagree about the drivetrain observation. I think the data speaks for itself though. A.) Many many members of this enthusiast community had their engine swapped or bought a car with a swap. B.) I have yet to see a car listed for $8K-$30K where people get hung up on engine/drivetrain originality with respect to sale price.

I believe that you are implying worth and value as monetary. If you want to make money, get the sacrificial coupe running and sell as an original 'survivor'. If want the parts you need, take what you want from the sacrificial e9 but leave the body intact. Unload the shell as a restoration candidate. Nobody will hold your feet to the fire for selling a nice shell with missing or disassembled parts. There are plenty of parts floating around to get a shell driving again, especially if you are taking the better parts from each car, and putting the lesser parts in a bin that goes with the shell.
 
The e9 Coupe world is interesting. A resto-modded coupe will bring as much as a restored as original car however it's all in the execution- how well it was restored, and how tastefully it was modified. Other factors are manual vs auto, CS versus CSI and sunroof versus non. Recently there have been 3 or so examples of restored cars that have sold, 1 was a 3.0cs with a 3.5 engine and a mid 80's Mercedes colored interior, the second was the car we've all seen that sold at Canepa, and the third was a CSI that was restored to original by Carl Nelson and Co. The selling prices ranged from $99,000 for the original CSI to $110,000 for the Canepa car. One thing all 3 cars had in common is they were done to very high standards.

A former members 2800cs sold a couple of months ago for about $55,000.00. It was a very nice driver that was modified with disc brakes, a 3.5 engine, Spanish gearbox, Carl Nelson Springs and Sways, and 14" Alpinas.

Another recent sale of a nice driver quality coupe was one that belonged to the boys at the Autokennel, Polaris/Red 3.0cs. A very original car in that it was born Polaris/Red, still had the original block and head, and stock suspension and wheels. It was a nicely sorted car that sold for about the same price as the 2800cs mentioned above.

So to answer your question a stock car that has been restored properly will bring as much as a modified car that has been restored properly AS LONG as the modifications are tastefully executed and you don't go putting a Chevy V8 or 20" whips on the damned thing.

One thing that I feel stands true, others may not agree, is that it is more expensive to build a well executed modified car than a well executed stock car. Thus the financial reward is in the stock car. Oh and if you are in this for the money, run!!!
 
great timing

I have someone who wants to look at my Polaris coupe for possible purchase and I would like to ask a fair price; using the guide below and viewing the rather lengthy (sorry) thread: http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17841

I wonder if members would care to give some $ ranges. In addition to what Markos has put together and my applicable comments (IN CAPS) the other issues are:
needs original headliner removed and cleaned allowing me to re grease and adjust the sunroof, fix that darn electric antennae, replace the original A/C compressor as the original is completely seized. It also needs a tail pipe chrome end piece and 2 white screws for the headlight covers.

Markos said:
I do follow sales rather closely, and this is what I have gleamed so far in the non-concours-level marketplace for cars that aren't 'survivors'.

  • Service records are more important than previous owner count. (LAST 20 YRS)
  • Rust-free body is more important than drivetrain condition (body work is difficult/costly, engine swaps are easy/inexpensive) (AS RUST FREE AS ANY NON DIPPED E9)
  • US vs Euro doesn't play much of a role in price (EURO DELIVERY-US SPEC)
  • Interior condition is more important than drivetrain condition (upholstery and dash restoration work is difficult/costly, engine swaps are easy/inexpensive) (INTERIOR 9.8 OUT OF 10)
  • Driveablity and performance may be desired over originality (ex: 3.5L engine, 5spd Trans, added AC), which is why drivetrain condition is less relevant. (ORIGINAL DRIVETRAIN-COMPLETELY DETAILED & SEALED, NEW DRIVESHAFT)
  • A modified car that includes original block, original wheels may not command a higher price, but may sell better. (ORIGINAL 14 IN WHEELS)
  • Matching numbers and drivetrain originality have limited value, and drive-train swaps often boost sale price. (VERY IMPRESSIVE PERFORMANCE WITH THE STOCK 4-SPEED)
  • FI is a desireable upgrade that doesn't hurt value
  • Weber down drafts are an acceptable replacement for Zenith, but Zenith often considered better when tuned correctly (HAVE ORIGINAL CARBS, RUNNING WEBERS THOUGH)
  • Weber side drafts are a desired upgrade
  • CSL chin spoilers are an acceptable upgrade
  • CSL rear spoilers, chrome arches, splitters etc. are less desireable for cars that aren't a registered CSL (tribute cars tend to have an artificial premium associated with them, as the parts alone don't cost that much).
  • Few owners are interested in maintaining original 'patina'. They want fresh paint and the assurance that no cancer resides under the surface.(ZERO RUST BUBBLES BUT PATINA PRESERVED)
  • Factory original paint colors are important, but color swaps are commonplace. (ORIGINAL COLOR-POLARIS)
  • Interior upgrades (leather, carpet, steering wheel) are commonplace. (PROFESSIONALLY CLEANED CARPET)
  • Leather > Cloth. (NEW FRONT LEATHER SEATS, REARS ORIGINAL AND IN GOOD SHAPE)
  • Manual > Auto (4-SPEED)
  • Small Bumper > Diving Board Bumper (1970, SMALL BUMPER)
  • Original Seats > Aftermarket Seats (excluding Scheel) (ORIGINAL, ALL WORKING)
  • Exlcuding drivetrain, period correct is important (PERIOD CORRECT, CN SPRINGS, BILSTEINS, FRONT SHOCK SPACERS MILLED TO 3/8 " TO MAINTAIN HEIGHT, REAR SHOCK TOWERS REINFORCED)
  • 18" Wheels are frowned upon, unless targeting a specific enthusiast
  • 17" Wheels are advised against but have a following
  • 16" Wheels are desired, good Aplina clones are accepted/desired
  • 15" Wheels are liked
  • 14" Wheels are respected, and desired if factory-correct, or CSL Alpina upgrade
  • Paint bubbles or visible rust in lower front fenders puts people on high alert(NONE)
  • Shock tower/inner fender rust turns people away(NONE)
  • Rocker rust turns people away(NONE)
  • Floor pan and tire well rust is considered manageable(NONE)
  • RHD CSL's sell for less than LHD CSL's(LHD)
Click to expand...

Thanks!
 
My question is pretty basic. I'm not looking for anyone to value my coupe(s), I'm asking if anyone has seen or experienced a premium based on originality. From decades of owning BMWs, I know BMW folks, in general, buy their cars and then proceed to "improve" them. As opposed to, say Porsche people, who crave patina and worship originality.

I appreciate the input so far. Markos, you rock. That's a list to study over fine beverages.
 
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From what I saw when I was out Coupe shopping, originality isn't huge. Body condition is. My Coupe is a red headed step child; tranny swapped, later head, Webers, etc. What made mine worth the price I paid was the fact that it's not a rust bucket.

If the body is in good shape, that far out weighs originality as far as what I've seen in the market.

That's a hell of a post too Markos.
 
chapa said:
BMW folks, in general, buy their cars and then proceed to "improve" them. As opposed to, say Porsche people, who crave patina and worship originality.
Click to expand...

Yup, that sums things up pretty well. So you could conclude that an original coupe wouldn't command a premium the way an original 911 does. But a coupe with minimal rust, regardless of originality, does command a premium.
 
Originality always works

Originality, all things being equal, always pays a premium over mods.

I've read that a matching number engine isn't really an importan factor and that's a totally new thing for me, as I've had several classic cars and the lack of a matching number engine implied, at least, a reduction in value of 15-20%.

Mods are not an issue as long as they're easily reversible (es. wheels, radio, steering wheel etc.).

Then, you could even find the guy who falls in love with an heavily modified car but this is another story, and not the "rule" at all.

Last but not least, there's a difference among the US and Euro market: whilst the first one often accepts modifications like the engine swap, the Euro market deprecates this practice which heavily brings down the value of the car.
 
chapa;163932 said:
The answer is yes.
I experienced SFDon's bliss when he disassembles a system and realizes no one has been there before since the factory... And the expletives when many people had had their hand and it shows.
Click to expand...
 
chapa said:
My question is pretty basic. I'm asking if anyone has seen or experienced a premium based on originality.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you're selling and where you are selling it.

If you are selling a car in bad condition originality won't bring you much of a premium.

If you want to sell a top car in Europe, you will never get a top price if it isn't original matching number and doesn't have a complete history. (The original car can be restored as long as the restoration is well documented.)

Based upon what I have seen in the passed and just read in the above comments, that seems to be completely different in the US.
 
Philippe db said:
Depends on what you're selling and where you are selling it.

If you are selling a car in bad condition originality won't bring you much of a premium.

If you want to sell a top car in Europe, you will never get a top price if it isn't original matching number and doesn't have a complete history. (The original car can be restored as long as the restoration is well documented.)

Based upon what I have seen in the passed and just read in the above comments, that seems to be completely different in the US.
Click to expand...

I think originality becomes important again at a certain price point. I mentioned $30K in my first post. The primary driver for that price point seems to be condition however. Once cars get into the $40-$70K range, I think that originality makes a car much more desirable. CSL originality seems to be key, which makes absolute sense to me.

The thing that I like to remind myself is that original owners can neglect their cars. I'm not a good "original owner" for my daily drivers. I tend to ignore standard maintenance cycles. The same can happen for the hoarder that stuck an e9 in a barn to rot. With that said, originality of a car and car owner are two very separate things. Both are advertised as selling points. Both are desirable but they both have caveats to consider.
 
Extremely educational and thought provoking thread. Thanks, folks. I do believe I'm going to offer my second coupe as an amazingly original, second owner coupe. It's only original once.

At a reserve. If the reserve is met, both buyer and seller will be happy. If it doesn't meet reserve, then it's a parts car, of which a large portion goes into and onto my driver. Lots of work, lots of pics to be done. thanks again, jim
 
How much is the concept of "stock original" worth in a coupe?

It's worth a fortune to Walloth Nesch, Jaymic, BMW Parts and Classics service plus all the others.

I guess it may be worth something more if your car is an investment but mine isn't. I plan to use it, so I will improve it wherever I can to make it safer, more reliable and more comfortable and hope this doesn't dent the value too much.

I am banking on it not going down in value at all and being a stunning car to be in and to drive.

I will invest in something else, like fine wine, and probably drink it all.
 
Having spent some time in the Vintage Mustang world I saw an evolutionary shift over there from a relatively inflexible "it must be stock original" to "tasteful modifications" are now also acceptable, even in certain judged classes at Mustang Club of America sanctioned shows. Not surprisingly, values of the modifieds have seen a distinct uptick within the past decade.

By way of background, for many years the purists in the hobby would pick nits that include such examples as correct hose clamps, valve stem caps, and other items that could be easily identified as "correct original". What is somewhat different over there is that "numbers correct" engines prior to 1968 by and large did not exist as Ford did not stamp VIN's on the blocks. At most, casting date codes that preceded the assembly date of the car by as much as several weeks were as close as one could get and thus would allow for "period correct" even if not factory original to that car.

Non stock power trains, safety upgrades, comfort and convenience upgrades, and non stock colors are gaining in popularity. The point is that there is now room in the hobby for tastefully modified cars.

The emerging mantra is "It's your car, do what you want" and a deviation from stock original is no longer an automatic scarlet letter. No matter what you have, a buyer who shares your vision of what your car is/could be is a growing factor in determining its value. When it comes to powertrain modifications on E9s, it seems that a well done conversion (FI/5 speed) does add value in the eyes of many who frequent this forum.
 
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