I got the fender rust...

[e9allan]

I did a search and came up empty. what I would like to know is what is the best way to stop the rusting process and preserve what is left - at the moment I don't have the extra thousands to get a restoration done on the rusty areas. The rubber coating is still on top of the rusty areas. I suppose the best course of action is to pull all of that up and take a grinder to it and the use POR 15 products for the time being? Is there a better way? Or am I just wasting my time and it really wont help that much? Also, what is the rough estimate for getting rid of the fender rust? I am sure it varies from car to car, but I just want an idea.

Thanks,

Allan

 

[x_atlas0]

As sad as it is to have to ask (thanks again for the pre-purchase rust, Karmann!) where is it rusting on the front fender?

The most common locations are behind the front wheels (due to the dirt box) and the engine bay rain channel. I have also seen quite a bit at the shock towers before, but less frequently so.

 

[mr bump]

The major reason E9s rust is due to the way the car is earthed. When the body is used as an earth, and water get into the many hidden and non hidden joints, it turns into a big battery and acid kills the cars. My only suggestion is to treat where you can with a good rust converter (we have curust by hammerite in england) and hope it dosent spread until you have funds to get it sorted by a bodyshop.

Your not the only one, ive got bits coming through and have the same dilemma, no fund to get it sorted.:sad:

 

[Stevehose]

If it is rusting on top of the fendrs then likely it is also underneath in the channel where it mounts to the inner fender. Take the wheel off and blow out the cavity mentioned below as well as the channel abover the wheel that runs along the fender. Then get some Penetrol from Home Depot and spray it all up in there with a garden type sprayer (better if you have a compressed air shutz gun - do this over a drop cloth because it is messy, and protect any place you don't want to cover, it's difficult to get off once it dries). Then put your wheel back on and park the car with the rear a little higher than the front and shoot Penetrol inside the cavity on top of the fender channel towards the fire wall side (there should be a hole in the seam to access this), this will flow along it inside and exit out the front (cover the tire and suspension). Then I guess you can treat the surface rust on top as you describe.

 

[Sven]

e9allan - Steve's solution sounds pretty good. Also, never letting it get wet will help some (good luck with that in the UK). When the car does get wet all the rust and accumulated dirt in the seams/cavities will absorb the moisture and stay wet for long time, accelerating the process.

I suppose the best course of action is to pull all of that up and take a grinder to it and the use POR 15 products for the time being?

The main problem is that once you see the rust on top (or outside) it has usually worked its way through from underneath. So grinding it from the top will just leave holes or no metal. If you can get to both sides of the metal then the POR15 route makes more sense.

You can pull the tar off if you want to see the extent that the rust has creeped under this material. There are some patch panels available for the pieces on top of the fenders - although you will have to remove the outer fender to replace the long piece. So you can do some repair without taking the entire car all the way down to its skeleton.

 

[jmackro]

The major reason E9s rust is due to the way the car is earthed. When the body is used as an earth, and water get into the many hidden and non hidden joints, it turns into a big battery and acid kills the cars.

I don't think so.

If that were true, why wouldn't modern cars rust just as badly as 40-year old cars?

Acid from where?

 

[deQuincey]

I don't think so.

If that were true, why wouldn't modern cars rust just as badly as 40-year old cars?

Acid from where?

+1

 

[e9allan]

I know it that some people probably wouldn't want to say, but is anybody out there that had the rust professionally fixed that would be willing to say what it costs to have this work done?

 

[John Buchtenkirch]

I don't think so.

If that were true, why wouldn't modern cars rust just as badly as 40-year old cars?

Acid from where?

I agree, probably 75% or better of our coupes rust problems come from the lack of front fender skirts, that allows road dirt to be packed into every nook & corner in the front wheel wells. Once that packed in road dirt becomes wet you more or less have sponges that hold water, if you drive your coupe in the winter where they salt the roads those sponges will get soaked with salt brine almost guaranteeing a rotted out coupe. There are other problems but they are relatively minor when compared to that one major problem.

From a body man’s perspective our coupes are somewhat strange. The rear has full welded in wheel houses ;-) just like any other modern car while the front fenders are completely open :cry: like cars were built in the USA during the fifties. To my way of thinking the coupe was unfortunately built with ideas from 2 completely different time periods. ~ John Buchtenkirch

 

[Aussiecsi]

Empty your pockets

Allan, I'm about to jump in the deep end and looking at about 8k here in OZ.I'm supplying quarter/repair panels front and rear and outer rocker panels (fromW&N )but allows for additional rust work such as floor pans etc and spot rust her and there .The work is by a rust specialist and I think from memory includes preventative rust treatment . Should've learnt to weld instead of drinking and chasing chicks ! ....but maybe not

Just learn to "rationalise " expenditure ...a new car will depreciate faster $wise than what you spend on an E9 so in the end you end up in front .... and the chicks dig them ! ... but don' t tell my wife ! Good luck .Cheers,Simon

 

[echappe]

This is a cheaper way to do this, It was done 10 years ago with bare metal repaint and car still look fresh



http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/pictures?userid={BBD7AEB6-ABA2-4F5A-B86B-C8FB8CECBC13}&AlbumId={C131C928-7B44-4FB9-8EE2-3121E56B0FE0}&GroupId={FD3C0997-2198-4993-831F-D3C87DCAAF42}&st=he&GUID={A5047C1F-7547-45DD-8427-E7B4EDA455E4}&sent=stored

 

[Honolulu]

Jmackro, dequincy...

Modern cars are better designed to drain, they use steels that don't rust as quickly, and their anti-rust treatments are better.

Also, though it may sound facetious, "modern" cars aren't as old.

BMW and other makers really only got serious about long term survival sometime in the 80s. Too bad for a lot of cool cars made prior to that. I had 14 2002s at one time or another, but try find a good one now!

 

[mr bump]

I don't think so.

If that were true, why wouldn't modern cars rust just as badly as 40-year old cars?

Acid from where?

They do in England and country's with similar climates. The Austin rovers, fords and many others rotted like mad round headlight sections, slam panels, wings ect..ect.

And as for acid, if you put an electrical charge through water it slowly becomes acidic, add salt content from our roads then hey presto, rot!! So when the grit and dirt that gets trapped gets wet and water gets trapped in the panel gaps, and the body's constantly having an electrical charge put through it, rust forms. climates don't have this problem as much like sandy country's, but engines usually fail due to dust in the engine.

Modern cars are now galvanised, are entirely made of aluminium, are far far better made in construction and design with far far better materials and all are rust proofed as part of the lessons learned from 40 year old cars that rotted from.....................ect ect.

 

[rdholland]

This is a cheaper way to do this, It was done 10 years ago with bare metal repaint and car still look fresh



http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/pictures?userid={BBD7AEB6-ABA2-4F5A-B86B-C8FB8CECBC13}&AlbumId={C131C928-7B44-4FB9-8EE2-3121E56B0FE0}&GroupId={FD3C0997-2198-4993-831F-D3C87DCAAF42}&st=he&GUID={A5047C1F-7547-45DD-8427-E7B4EDA455E4}&sent=stored

I am planning a similar repair on my 68 2000CS. By chance I was recently given an all original donor car. There is lots of rust in the rear but very little forward of the firewall, amazingly so. Now that I have legitimate patch panel access I feel more confident. Can you provide any contact or additional information on this project? I would very much like to speak with the guy who did the work.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[bavbob]

I hooked up with a body shop that has worked on vintage BMW's for years and was recommended by the late Jim Albright. Through them I learned how to weld and found fabrication is somethig you can do with patience and time. Otherwise I grind down, used rust converter and encapsulator and follow with rubberized undercoating. I let them do any painting (some say the encapsulator is worthless, just makes me feel better). All told 100 bucks for sheet metal, 400 bucks for a MIG welder, 80 bucks for an angle grinder and tons of my time.

The front hood is a design flaw and I was told that Penetrol or equivalent would help. There is that front fender guard that has a gasket to protect stuff from getting behind the fender and into the rocker panel..dumbest thing ever. I pulled them and ran my shop vac hose all the way down to the rear fender and pulled out tons of sand, gravel and (sadly,???) acorns.Who decided to use a sponge for a gasket around the gas tank?

 

[rdholland]

Bavbob,
I feel you, it's good to compare notes as there are only a very few of us restoring these early coupes and I have found almost no resources at all with any detailed pictures and documentation of the process for our cars.

I have completely stripped down my donor car to its bare metal shell. The front fenders, top and inners are very clean and I am currently stripping off all of the paint this weekend to expose every single spot weld. I have decided not to patch anything but rather to completely disassemble the front of the car. I will then disassemble my coupe's front in the same manner and replace the good panels onto mine, matching up all of the spot weld holes - they were all done with machines in the same spots originally. I have a ton of pics, I'll try to update my original thread this weekend and document the whole process showing the process with every single seam and panel.

It's note worthy to point out that I could never have conceived this elaborate of a repair without having received that donor car. Now that the donor is stripped completely, I can see that a better mechanic, with more room and more tools, could indeed have restored that car. It's a shame, but it is the price I have to pay for my education. There is no substitution for this experience so I am keeping it in perspective.

Cheers,
Rob

 

[bavbob]

My car was a cheap project. I went on a steep learning curve and never expected to get into "perfection mode". I did not ever think the thing could be reborn and was wrong...about 12k later. My sons call my cars "Dad's metal children". We could have worse hobbies. Rob

 

[execmalibu]

E9 Rust Repair in So Cal John Esposito is amazing.

In case you Coupe guys need rust repair John Esposito in No. Hollywood who was primarily a Porsche 356/911 Body and Paint expert during the past couple of years he has branched out a little and has restored 6-8 E9 Coupes. Some were absolutely stripped bare and totally rebuilt bodies. Someone asked for photos so here you go.

The first photos are of a 1973 Coupe a Calif Car that came to his shop totally stripped to the bare metal and just a bare BODY on a dolly with virtually NOTHING else (No Rubber,Wiring,Mechanical, Trim, etc etc)...

The car on first inspection appeared to be amazingly straight and appeared to be totally rust free. But upon closer inspection a tiny bit of rust was found only on the fender drip rails. (photo 3)

When John started pushing with a sharp pick into the drip rails was when the drama started. The tiny holes as they often are were just the tip of the iceberg. Both drip rails had little tiny pin holes along their entire length and the metal was paper thin. John cut out both drip rails and then hand made new drip rails that also have the four correct raised bumps. They cleaned ALL of the debris out from the top of the fenders (photo 4) and treated the area to prevent future rust. Then he metal finished the new drip rails in and even in bare metal it is hard to find the seams. John did mention that the design of the top of the front fenders was the worst design he had ever seen "it is like they were intended to catch dirt,water and road debris."

BTW...

These are NOT my cars! They are other E9 coupe guys that I do not know who brought their cars to Johns shop on their own.

 

[execmalibu]

Rust Repair in So Cal John Esposito

It is good to have options because there are very few shops left that can do rust repair and metal fabrication in So Cal. Most of those guys have retired or died.


Here is a second E9 Coupe that John is just finishing this week...


The car was delivered to his shop as just a rolling shell. The car had previous rust and that had been repaired with lots of NEW FACTORY SHEET METAL (Fenders,Rockers,Wheel Wells, Shock Towers,Spare Tire Well Etc Etc.) but the installation was sub standard.

The owner of the car went absolutely crazy and ordered about $30,000 in NEW BMW sheet metal that was delivered to Johns shop. John disassembled the car and installed the new sheet metal from front to back hand fabricating some of the metal parts from scratch.

 

['69 2800cs]

Nice pictures Jeff...thanks for sharing.