Ignition issues (continued)

[Laldog]

A month ago car idled and ran great, but in an attempt to clear up some ignition switch issues and clean up some bad connection and wiring, I decided to switch to a Bosch blue coil and eliminate the ballast resistor.

Car will now start but runs like total crap, sputtering and backfiring when I punch the gas.

Admittedly, I have no definitive knowledge of what the coil connections to be now that the ballast resistor is out of the equation. (It also has Pertronix unit)

I've tried switching out wires and reversing them between pos and neg on the coil, but there seems to be so many possible combinations tthat this is getting me nowhere.

Any ideas or suggestions??

All help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[61porsche]

The green wire from the ballast resistor goes to the plus side of the coil. The blue red wire isn't used any more.

The red wire from the Pertronix goes to the plus side of the coil.

Black with red from the starter by pass goes to the plus side of the coil.

The rest go on the negative side.

Tach, black from Pertronix, etc.

Check your timing in case you bumped something like the distributer turned a bit, cap, etc.

 

[MMercury]

A month ago car idled and ran great, but in an attempt to clear up some ignition switch issues and clean up some bad connection and wiring, I decided to switch to a Bosch blue coil and eliminate the ballast resistor.

Car will now start but runs like total crap, sputtering and backfiring when I punch the gas.

Admittedly, I have no definitive knowledge of what the coil connections to be now that the ballast resistor is out of the equation. (It also has Pertronix unit)

I've tried switching out wires and reversing them between pos and neg on the coil, but there seems to be so many possible combinations tthat this is getting me nowhere.

I am having trouble following all of your recent ignition travails. Without the benefit of actually seeing what you have done, my first inclination is to reverse your steps, and, if necessary, return things as they were "a month ago."

First, I have to wonder if you neglected to adjust the ignition timing after you installed the petronix unit. "Sputtering and backfiring" smack of severely retarded ignition timing. From what you describe, I would want to loosen that 10mm hold down clamp and start twisting that distributor. Of course sputtering is also symptomatic of a short in the ignition system and even running out of fuel.

Second, after you installed the petronix (and presumably adjusted the timing) did you possibly re-gap the spark plugs much wider than .035"? If you were to readjust things too wide, you could exceed the limits of your new coil's ability to consistently jump those gaps and this could also result in poor engine operation - especially under load.

Not to wrongly condemn any of your new parts, but like anything else, your petronix unit could be defective or installed incorrectly (bad air gap? wire not properly grounded?). Along those lines, I recall you being concerned about a "smoking" ballast resistor. Assuming for the moment that this was abnormal, is anything else "cooking" since you eliminated the external resistor from the mix?

Next, did you do anything with regard to the cap and rotor? Were they changed? If so, revert to the older parts. If not, carefully examine both the rotor and the cap, paying particular attention to the carbon button in the center of the cap. Plug leads to the cap attached in the correct order and not (inadvertently) mixed up?

Lastly, returning to your coil connections, is it possible that your coil's polarity is reversed? I suppose it could affect engine performance under load/acceleration, but perhaps not as dramatically as you have described.
http://www.fifthaveinternetgarage.com/tech_tips/tech_tips_ign_coil_polarit.html http://arrc.epnet.com/autoapp/9073/9073CH4_IGNITION_SYSTEM.htm

 

[Laldog]

Thanks...

Very helpful reply.

The Pertronix unit was installed over 5 years ago and car ran great previous to this years "activities" so I think the Pertronix unit can be ruled out as the culprit.

Nothing else was adjusted or changed out. I did open up the distributor cap once or twice to check and see if the Pertronix unit wasn't smoking or otherwise fried, and a quick inspection of that and the distributor cap contact points revealed no glaring issues.

I did disconnect the condensor wire, as I read in a few posts it was no longer needed with the Pertronix unit. True??

Lastly, and most interesting, the label to the new Bosch coil faces the firewall as it is sits in the car. I thought this was a little strange, but the positive/negative poles are situated such that it makes this necessary. Most pictures I've seen of this coil in the E9 show the label facing outward, in the direction of the engine. A little strange but also opens the possibility of the polarity being reversed!!

Thanks again.
I'll try to check this when I won't be waking up half the neighborhood.

 

[Laldog]

What is this wire....

and with whom does it mate??

This one is a black and yellow striped wire from a wire loom entering at the front of engine bay (behind the passenger side headlight).

It has a female connector at it end which continues as an additional black and red dotted wire.

These 2 wires heat up when I connect them, and when not connected, the engine will turn over but not start. I think this is the cause of my problem, but I'm totally confused about their connection ppoints.

Anu ideas/suggestions would be greatly appreciated

 

[61porsche]

wires getting hot

The black with red spots/ stripes is from the starter. It supplies full power and by passes the resistor you removed; only when the key is turned and the starter engages.

What I don't see on the positive side of the coil in your picture is the green wire from the starter switch ( the wire hooked on to the old ballast resistor). One of those wires is going to be hot with the key on. One will be only with the starter truning - both you can check with a meter or a test light.

The black yellow disappears to the light area- my best guess is that it's one of two things- if your car once had electronic ignition and at sometime went away back to points... the second guess is that is somehow the feed for the a/c auxillary fan relay. Normally the wire to that is a small loom of it's own coming from the firewall along the a/c lines.

Regardless, from your description one is gounding when it shouldn't. i would with an electrical test for for ground ;probe the wire to confirm. Then beginning with the starter check the black /red wire to see if it's the wire by itself that somehow is touching something it shouldn't, put on the wrong terminal of the starter solenoid, etc.

The black/ yellow- you're going to have to take the headlight surround off and trace that wire. The auxillary a/c fan in front of the radiator gets power from the battery directly. That a/c relay below the coil- there are several connections there- check to make sure nothing got bumped, etc. It has one power and through the relay sends both a power signal to the compressor clutch and a ground to the auxillary fan. There's really not much more in the front. The only other tip on the a/c relay is that it needs a good ground through the can/ cover. Make sure all those wires are fully on the relay terminals or not touching the body.

It might help to know what year car, maybe the wiring is a bit different.

 

[MMercury]

I'll try to check this when I won't be waking up half the neighborhood.

Per P61's terrific observations and suggestions, your wiring is the prime suspect. (Regarding ignition wiring from the starter, this tread and pictures may fill in some blanks http://www.e9coupe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5428 ; Three simplified coil/resistor diagrams on page two. Perhaps you are suffering from info overload and "overlooking" something obvious? http://www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/pdf/ignitor12vneg.pdf )

At the risk of sending some mixed and confusing signals, and assuming the wiring is returned to its state a month ago (except for the new coil and minus the external resistor), here are some other stabs in the dark.

As suggested before, have you checked or adjusted the ignition timing? Even without a timing light, scribing a simple witness mark on the distributor body and the surrounding housing should enable you to return things to the way you found them. Then turn by 1-2 degree increments to see if it has any effect on engine performance? http://www.e9coupe.com/tech/autobooks/chapter3/autobooks_manual_052.htm

Returning to the petronix (non)issue. Is it possible the unit is evidencing some advanced age? (My personal experience with these is limited Allison and CD units) Intuitively, one would expect a correctly installed unit would either function or not, but the troubleshooting guide suggests the unit may become "temperamental" if its hunger for voltage goes unsatisfied.

"Q. The engine will not start or runs rough. Are there any tests that I can do?
A. Yes, remove the red Ignitor™ wire from the coil positive terminal. Connect a jumper wire from the positive side of the battery directly to the red Ignitor™ wire. If the engine starts and runs well, you may have a low voltage problem. Remember this is just a test and not intended for permanent installation. Read “ How to correct a low voltage problem”

Q. How to correct a low voltage problem?
A. First, if you have an external ballast resistor, connect the red Ignitor™ wire to the ignition wire prior to the ballast resistor. Second, if you do not have a ballast resistor you must locate a 12 volt source that is controlled by the ignition switch to connect the red Ignitor™ wire to.

Q. What type of coil can I use?
A. The Ignitor™ is compatible only with a "points style" coil.

Q. What happens if I leave the ignition switch on when the engine is not running?
A. This can cause you coil to overheat, which may cause permanent damage to the coil and the Ignitor™.

Q. May I modify the length of the Ignitor™ wires?
A. Yes, you may cut the wires to any length your application may require. You may also add lengths of wire if needed (20 gauge wire). Please make sure all wire splice are clean and connections are secure.

Q. How can I get additional help?
A. Call our tech line (909 599 5955) for any further instructions or questions. You may also logon to www.pertronix.com for the latest technical information."

You mention "disconnecting" the condenser, which makes sense since it is unnecessary without the points. However, if you are suggesting that it was connected "a month ago," then maybe it was somehow serving as a makeshift ground?
http://www.mgexperience.net/article/pertronix-installation-tips.html