Looking for a window wisperer. Manual front Windows

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bavbob

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I thank Roger S. for the title.

I am putting my right windows back in and it has been a bear to adjust them. I kept track of the old support positions before paint but as expected, that was worthless. I cannot get the front window to go high enough with the crank to create a seal with the upper door gasket (see last image). I also cannot get it aligned with the back window gasket, although it seats ok (see image 1,2). Clearly the window has to move up and to move forward on the bottom when closed since it is so close to the door frame (see image 1 red circle) while the top has to move back. I have every nut lose, I can pull the window up manually to seat and pull the top back to almost align, but I cannot get the bottom (when up) to be any more forward. Although I can manually manipulate the window to almost fit, I cannot do so with the window crank. It will not go all the way up. I have all the window stops loose or off so that is not an issue. Apparently been issues in the past by the little chip in the glass ( arrow). The car was hit in the right rear quarter panel but from outside, looks perfect. I have spent two days on this Rubic's cube and asking for any help. I was thinking of adjusting the door itself but the body shop really did a nice job with the alignment. That's a last resort. I am going to shim the bottom screw of the window attchment to the rear track to hopefully change the window angle.

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Try winding the window halfway down ,then loosen the bolts holding the winder mechanism to the door, now try winding the window , you should see quite a bit of rotation with the mounting bolts , now grab the glass and move it in the direction best for alignment, hold pressure on the glass and tighten the winder mech bolts, that should help . Sometimes it is necessary to adjust /shim the rear vertical window guide as well, try step one first. Good luck,Burky.
 
Appreciated. I quickly applied your method and got some results, going to try it further. The other thing that was helpful was replacing the felt guide on the front. Even though the old guide seemed fine, the new one allowed the window to rise another .5cm which was enough. Still unable to get front and rear window edges parallel. I tried to tweak the rear window again but no luck. I planned on shimming the rear window guide as well.
 
I've been putting this off because it looked very difficult. Initial installation yielded same results as yours, window doesn't go high enough or level. I used new W/N spring stops (I've got power windows) and they seem to be too big. The design only lifts in one position somewhat near the middle of the glass, so there is little to no wobble prevention towards the top end of travel.
I'll take this on the chin as a "price to pay" for a pillarless car, as I'm watching a 2000's AMG coupe sell on bring a trailer it makes me wonder if the germans got better at it.
 
I just took the right front glass out the other night because it had come loose. One of the rivets in the clamp that holds the glass to the roller bracket broke. I wasn't expecting problems putting it back together but I guess I should. ;)

EDIT: Oops, I thought your were talking E3.
 
Here's the rundown on this Rubic's cube window thing: 73 with manual front, electric back window. We all can figure this out but maybe this will save someone a few minutes ...or days. Comments are all relative to main front window, not rear, not vent window.

1) 13 mm nuts at top and bottom of vent window alter angle of window medial or lateral. Manual windows on my 73 do not allow these to more front or back. Pull top in and push bottom out to bring top of window towards the door seal and vice versa.
2) The 10mm and 13mm bolts for the vent window dont get you much, a little forward or backward, but know that the motion comes mostly from window rotation so this changes the angle of the window.
3) Burky is right on. Window 1/2 way down, you can adjust the 3, 10mm bolts on the crank. This gets you some up/down and forward/backward motion. Again, the forward/backward is achieved with an element of rotation which alters the window angle relative to the back window and felt track on the vent window.
4) The 3, 10 mm bolts that hold the window to the mechanism/plate that rides on the rear track, these get you some forward/backward motion and a little up/down, but the up down is pure, no rotational component. I loosened the 2, 13mm nuts that hold the window to the arm while doing this.
5) Rear track adjusted via a lower bracket that goes medial/lateral and forward/backward but again, the forward/backward comes with some rotation and window angle change. The top of the track has 2 thin 10mm nuts that will allow the track to move forward/backward and in doing so, a little up and down, maybe a little medial/lateral.Again forward/back have some rotational component.
6) The 2, 10mm nuts that hold the rear bracket to the ball bearing slide, these get you a little up and down but mostly medial and lateral.
7) The 8mm nuts that hold the small front bracket at the window base that runs along the vent window track, very little achieved here. Adjust mostly to help with resistance during opening and closing.
 
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I’m hoping the window whisperer is still alive and well. I’ve read through all of the previous threads and I feel as if I have reached a mechanical block rather than me just understanding.
Problem - window all the way down is not fully hidden in the door but sticks up about 0.5 cm, yet at all the way up it is 0.5cm from the top of the vent window chrome. Before one suggests that I need to adjust the “stops” that exist to limit downward and upward final resting place, know that this issue occurs even with them out. When I use a scope to look at the rotational capability of the crank and its own built-in stops, it appears that when I am at most bottom position, I’ve reached the limit of the crank and yet at my most top I’ve reached the other limit of the crank. It’s almost as if I need another 10 degrees of rotational capability from the crank which isn’t a possibility. This vehicle came to me with the driver side not rising fully up, so this isn’t a situation where it was working and I have just reassembled it wrong, more that it’s possible that somehow I do not have the right parts in here to ever make this happen?

Pictures in order showing when I’ve almost reach the limit of what I can do, then the limit and then where the window is sitting at that end position. I’ve colored some red and blue lines just so you can see what the relevant area is - when red hits blue, there’s no more movement that can happen.

As as aside I will say that these scopes are pretty amazing. For about $100 you have a device which can record video or pictures and which has a controllable end which can make a 180-degree curve. I’ve found it very useful to try to understand what’s happening in an area I can’t see, or to identify some nut that I’m trying to reach when I don’t know its exact location (like on the back of the clock and speedometer)

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When running into the "unfavorable alignment of tolerances" issue, it may help to pre-load the winder as it were. With window partially down and held in place/blocked from going down and winder to door bolts loose, see if trying to lower further with the handle produces any significant regulator mounting bolt rotation - bolts moving as far as can go towards one edge of hole, then tighten while under load. Not much change, but sometimes enough. Next step if no other option is (shudder) elongating mounting holes a hair to allow clocking the initial regulator position. To see if this would work, remove bolts entirely, pull window all the way to desired position and see where holes line up. This only addresses the upper limit issue.
Do you have the plastic bushings that center glass to lifting plate bolts? #3 in diagram 51 32 6 754 221 (chunk of plastic tubing). Those can fail and then glass moves within hole. Can also "cheat" there with off-center placement.
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Thanks, I'll try the pre-loading. My initial thought when I started to take this apart was that someone had reinserted the window without the crank at its lowest position, which was disproven by the shots showing that I was actually hitting the limits of the crank on each end. I saw the issue with the plastic bushings/washers on my rears, and will admit that on these fronts I hadn't completely disassembled the window from its rubber parts so it's possible there is some extra play there. But yes, also agree that the final path will be to "trim" the edge of the metal portion that's preventing the crank from traveling just a few extra millimeters. And yes, I did confirm as well that when I hit my limit with the crank, I can either pull up on the window (or push up below on the arm) and get it to line up perfectly. So it's really the crank mechanism that's at fault.
One followup question - what is the correct "low" position for the window? If I do shimmy it slightly within its rubber holder as you suggest, what I'm doing there is actually sliding the window upwards, but that upwards position is maintained throughout its entire travel. As it stands, currently the low position still has the upper 0.5cm of window protruding above the door edge. With the rears I was able to get the window to disappear entirely as per instructed in the blue books. Not sure that would be possible with the fronts with the current setup.
 
Is part 12 on the top or bottom screw? I cannot recall the setup, been a while, but perhaps the diagram is incorrect as they may sometimes be. Also the part to the left of part 14 with no part number, that plastic guide can hang up in the track and limit window excursion. Alvaro sells most of the renewable parts here https://oilsdesigngroup.com/product/door-window-mounting-set/. The white plastic spacers for the holes in the glass, I got a Lowe's, I bought a nylon sleeve and just cut to length.
 
# 12 is bottom stop. Plastic guide insert "wedge" is 51 32 6 754 228
I'm not aware of any reasonable method to get the door glass to go below the outer trim level.
Short of changing the regulator or longer arm to increase travel, glass further up will result in glass further up in down position.
Remember being told by the dealer in '66 that it was a safety feature shared with 1602 to discourage driver to rest arm with elbow hanging out the window.
Anybody else recall that "explanation"?
 
Ha, sounds like something a parent tells a kid when they don’t have an answer - “because I said so!”
Regarding the stops, they are not the issue. What I tried to show with the in-the-door pictures was that the arc of the crank doesn’t allow for enough movement. I suspect there is a little bit of slop in the system so that what should add up just perfectly to go from top to bottom is allowing some movement which means I’m not getting full travel. Even when I turn the crank handle I can see some movement of the gears without any movement of the arm supporting the window. Not a lot, but likely a few mm worth. I’d think maybe I just need a new mechanism but unless it’s brand-new I suspect I might have the same issue with a used part. I’ll check the nylon bushings and then likely modify the portion that the cog hits to allow a bit more upward travel. If I mess it up then I need a new mechanism anyways.
 
Can you show us the other side of the mechanism....I know you cannot when installed. Do you have play in that rivet pain in the ass, design flaw thing that centers the whole thing and also holds the crank spring in place? De Q has a fix thread somewhere here. Just thinking out loud.
 
Yes, I can show the other side, actually those photos were taken from inside the door with the mech installed using the scope. I’ll take some pictures of the rivet to see if there’s play there, good idea
 
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