M3 Engine&5 speed Tran upgrade?

[ducks]

73 Euro 3.0CS looking at replacing the engine with am E36 M3 engine and 5 speed transmission, what are the drawabacks here, has anyone done this conversion,will the existing motormounts handle the install,does the engine need to be adjusted front or back for weight reasons,will it fit?How much of a project is this,I have skills but wonder what the drawbacks are in the installation?
Tks Drake

 

[Tierfreund]

Lots of custom work required. Exhaust, engine mounts, Tranny mounts, Odo drive...
Nothing slots right in. Sure, anything is doable, but:

What´s the point?
The E36 M3 engine is not a nice unit for the E9. The E9 with it´s laid back nature (really fast driving is no fun due to the wind noise, really sporty driving will just go to show how bad the body flexes...)
is a great cruiser. With the stock engine, fuel injected if you want muscle, plenty of torque, great sound and wonderfull ride is a very comfortable and rapid GT

An M3 engine will not improve on that. If you want something more speedy, the E9 is the wrong car to begin with.

Of course, the E9 can be turned into one hell of a racecar but to do so you need to start with an empty shell and the first step is a roll cage. And even then, there are better engines for a racing E9. Anything M30 based (even up to an M5 engine) is better suited. Easier to mount and far more logical.

I don´t want to be all negative, but the E9 is a great car and so is the M3 (though the E36 is probably the weakest version, esp. the US version).
Both are great if let alone. But I don´t think they mix very well.

Think a very expensive Wiener Schnitzel with Mustard. Not an attractive proposition.

 

[ducks]

hmmm

kinda thought that, but wondered, now how about an M6 euro engine, 86 era,will that fit? Guess I'd like to know whats the best swap out for the 3.0 euro engine&trans,or can I get more H.P. outta the original engine? Bear with me please ,I'm a Porsche guy LOL,looking to make less mistakes rather than more and appreciate the depth of experience here.

 

[Tierfreund]

The M6 engine will be a lot easier to make fit since it is based on the same block as the stock M30 engine. It still is a very tight fit doe to the much bigger 4 Valve head, the need for a bigger radiator, Oil cooler etc.

Besides it´s been done a couple of times so with some research you´ll find plenty of explanations and howtos.

But: The same objection applies: More hp does not necessarily make the E9 a better or nicer car. Unless you need the bragging rights of those horses you can not really apply, the swap is pointless.

UNLESS you turn the whole car into quite a different animal. But that means changing most anything apart from the silhouette. You´d need a cage, different seats, a major reworking of the chassis bigger brakes etc...

This is not 911 territory. Throw more horses at a 911 and it gets better and better gradually. Do the same to an E9 and it start showing its shortcomings.

The E9 is just about perfect in stock form. Minor improvements can come from applying more modern materials. But major surgery destroys its character.

For crikey, even the CSL made due with 200 horses. Any more and you basically need a different car.

The only engine upgrade that makes sense to me is a late 3.5 Motronic with a Getrag 265 5 Speed overdrive box. 211 horses, probably a cat, plenty of torque and a relaxed character suit the grand tourer character of the E9 very well. Plus you get almost modern car reliabilty, usability and running character.
That´s a sweet upgrade (though I still wonder why noone ever converts to a Motronic late 3.0 since the 3 liter runs more smoothly than the 3.5 and the more in torque of the 3.5 is almost too much for the fragility of the E9, oh well I guess "more is more" is the most common misconception these days...)

All IMHO of course. Very H!

 

[ducks]

My intentions are

The cars currently running the Euro 3.0 engine w/ 40DCOE Webers& 4 speed, I'm going to install larger calipers,SS brake lines,drilled discs,for use with my Alpina wheels,bilstein sport shocks,poly bushings,nelson springs,strut braces front and rear,larger sway bars F&R,str8pipe in front and existing muffler system. I know the ride will be harsher but i'm looking for better handling and driving experience. This is my starting point.

 

[x_atlas0]

The car's brakes will overtake the tires in stock form. I'd start with SS lines, better fluid, and better rubber before plunking down lots of cash for bigger/better caliper/rotor combos.

Does your car have a LSD?

The triple Webers and a Euro motor are a good combo. I guess the real question is, do you have a goal in mind in terms of power? A fully built NA M30 (bored, stroked, 10:1, cammed, FI, the works) will hit ~250rwhp, but cost ~15-20k. (assuming some one else builds it for you)

A S38 or M88 (the DOHC versions of the M30, used in the E34/E28 M5, E24 M6, M1, and SA 745) will make about that much stock, and can go much higher NA, but is also much, much more expensive to both build and maintain, much less find in good condition. It will also require a firewall modification to fit due to the wider head. A few on the board here have done that swap, and can tell you more.

Like I said, the main question is, what are your goals?

 

[acat2002]

Lots of custom work required. Exhaust, engine mounts, Tranny mounts, Odo drive...
Nothing slots right in. Sure, anything is doable, but:

What´s the point?
The E36 M3 engine is not a nice unit for the E9. The E9 with it´s laid back nature (really fast driving is no fun due to the wind noise, really sporty driving will just go to show how bad the body flexes...)
is a great cruiser. With the stock engine, fuel injected if you want muscle, plenty of torque, great sound and wonderfull ride is a very comfortable and rapid GT

An M3 engine will not improve on that. If you want something more speedy, the E9 is the wrong car to begin with.

Of course, the E9 can be turned into one hell of a racecar but to do so you need to start with an empty shell and the first step is a roll cage. And even then, there are better engines for a racing E9. Anything M30 based (even up to an M5 engine) is better suited. Easier to mount and far more logical.

I don´t want to be all negative, but the E9 is a great car and so is the M3 (though the E36 is probably the weakest version, esp. the US version).
Both are great if let alone. But I don´t think they mix very well.

Think a very expensive Wiener Schnitzel with Mustard. Not an attractive proposition.

well said!
I've seen an S38 stuffed in an E9 body and while I'm extremely jealous one has to remember that for the kind of money necessary to pull that off correctly, you could have any number of better-suited vintage GT cars. I have a CSA and thought of stuffing a M35w/5spd auto from a 90 or 91 car, but after doing a "bank-of-the-napkin" feasibility analysis, it became immediately apparent that it would cost WAY WAY too much $$$$.
Tierfreund is absolutely correct in that the more ponies you throw at your E9, the more shortcomings will become evident (primarily body flex).
That said, I'd love to have a completely original CS/CSL parked next to a highly modified E9/S38 in my garage!

Bottom line is that anything can be done. We're just stating the caveat that unless you're a master fabricator or have unsually deep pockets.......

 

[ducks]

appreciate the input, WANT TO etc.

What I'd like is a great handling,uprated CS thats neutral cornering,harder suspension,something I can take aggressivelyon back country roads and to BMW track days here in W. PA.,like to get 225-250 hp. maybe a lightened flywheel,aggressive exhaust& headers may do the trick. Enjoy all the feedback as I'm sure it'll save me alot of time and $$$
Thanks for the input.
Drake
99 540i
72 911R
74 750GT Ducati
88 888 SPO Ducati

 

[x_atlas0]

Re: appreciate the input, WANT TO etc.

What I'd like is a great handling,uprated CS thats neutral cornering,harder suspension,something I can take aggressivelyon back country roads and to BMW track days here in W. PA.,like to get 225-250 hp. maybe a lightened flywheel,aggressive exhaust& headers may do the trick. Enjoy all the feedback as I'm sure it'll save me alot of time and $$$
Thanks for the input.
Drake
99 540i
72 911R
74 750GT Ducati
88 888 SPO Ducati

Actually, the flywheel is pretty light already. The stock wheel is ~15lbs, much less than that and you start having chatter issues. The exhaust isn't all that restrictive, the main bonus is lightening things up a bit. Headers can be nice, but again, gains are dubious. The stockers flow pretty well. A hotter cam could be benefitial, like a 282, rather than the stock 260 or 272. The main thing to do to get more power is increase the displacement, or if you are FI instead of carbs (not you personally, you said you have the triple 40s) is to switch the AFM for a MAF. That has a dyno-proven +20 bump in hp and torque, but it is arguable as to weather that comes from the tune update or the MAF itself.

In comparison, I've seen a few dynos of M30B35 (used in post-88 cars) with just a MAF lay out 200 rwhp, so about 230-240 crank hp.

Since you want a more fun car, do you have a LSD? That will drastically improve the handling when powering through a corner.

 

[pj]

Hey t,
don't be knocking the e36 m3, I just got back from a day at the track (T-Hill) where we were damn near untouchable.Ducks if you want to have fun at a track day buy the whole e36 m3 stick a suspension & Brake kit on it ,a set of Dot Rs and see if you can drive it to its limit. I can't but I am trying my hardest . The e36 m3 makes a killer track car. E 9 s are nostalgic but not that great on the track. OK all the guys with the track dedicated e9s wil dissagree but they are a special breed (good thing)in my opinion

 

[Tierfreund]

Nobody's dissing the M3. Ever. Even though the E36 M3 is probably the weakest effort under the M3 moniker. Still I´ve had quite a bit of fun in an E36 M3 fourdoor when it was new.

It´s just not an easy or very appropriate fit for the E9.

Leave the M3 engine in the M3 and everything is well...

Especially if you park the M3 next to a stock E9 and use the one for fast forward mode and the other for cruising....

 

[Mario L.]

For the point of discussion only . . we recently completed a swap of an S50 3.0 US spec with Schrick cams and later style headers into an E28 535i . . .

Yes it was a bit of labor, and not what I'd describe as a swap for just anyone to tackle. It has it's complexities, and required some fabrication and parts swapping to complete.

We used the E36 M3 5 speed gearbox, an E28 M5 airbox, relocated the battery to the trunk like an E28 M5, used an E36 radiator, factory hoses, and relocated the coolant reservoir. All was made to function except the coolant temp gage, as the OBD I coolant temp sensor was not compatible with the E28 dash gage. This required an additional gage cluster.
The largest challenges were the motor mounts.

But the result was in the drive! WOW . . These engines are a much freer reving and livelier than the M30. With a dyno test of 255 RWHP this car now flies! There's torque and power everywhere! Getting 255 RWHP out of an M30 is expensive, and will sacrifice reliabilty, and simplicity. This package retained all the OBD I engine management systems, and looks like a factory install.

I'd love top do this swap in a CS Coupe! The M50 / S50 family of engines are extremely robust until one starts modifying them for racing. Then they do require a bit of extra additions to maintain reliabilty. Unlike BMW's other engines they ABSOLUTELY NEED better head studs, a larger oil cooler, and a well designed cooling system.

Challenges to install one in a CS Coupe include the braking system , which I would change over to a hydraulic boosted system like the E28 chassis has. The rest is just plain fabrication and alignment, which will take a bit of time to complete.

Advantage over the M88/S38 M5/M6 engine family is why we chose this swap for the E28. A good M88 S38 is a very expensive engine to buy and install. Most every used engine FS today will require a rebuild soon, and those can cost $10K plus (unless you do it yourself).

M50/S50 engine can be bought with all electronics for $1000- $3500 depending on mileage and condition. Rebuilding later is still less costly than an M88/S38, or you can just swap in another engine.

Best of all, the car runs so clean, no carbs, great fuel mileage . .

Upgrade to a Euro S52 B30 for more punch!

 

[mark]

mario

always enjoy your posts.

how about canvassing whether there's interest to offer a conversion kit. i would buy one.

cheers
mark

 

[chicane]

Lots of custom work required. Exhaust, engine mounts, Tranny mounts, Odo drive...
Nothing slots right in. Sure, anything is doable, but:

What´s the point?
The E36 M3 engine is not a nice unit for the E9. The E9 with it´s laid back nature (really fast driving is no fun due to the wind noise, really sporty driving will just go to show how bad the body flexes...)
is a great cruiser. With the stock engine, fuel injected if you want muscle, plenty of torque, great sound and wonderfull ride is a very comfortable and rapid GT

An M3 engine will not improve on that. If you want something more speedy, the E9 is the wrong car to begin with.

Of course, the E9 can be turned into one hell of a racecar but to do so you need to start with an empty shell and the first step is a roll cage. And even then, there are better engines for a racing E9. Anything M30 based (even up to an M5 engine) is better suited. Easier to mount and far more logical.

I don´t want to be all negative, but the E9 is a great car and so is the M3 (though the E36 is probably the weakest version, esp. the US version).
Both are great if let alone. But I don´t think they mix very well.

Think a very expensive Wiener Schnitzel with Mustard. Not an attractive proposition.

What he said ^.

If you want an M3 engine just buy an M3. I have never understood why someone will take an $8000 car spend $10000 modding said car, and then have a $7000 car when they are finished with it.

 

[pj]

One of the rules for people who take their car to the track is 'Don't take anything you are not prepared to leave there if you wreck it.I tracked my coupe the on my 1st HPDE , it was quick & fun but things happen on the track real fast especially as you get quicker. I cut my weekend short that time because I wasn't prepared to take the risk.After 30+ weekends at the track I would not take my coupe to the track (unless it was a dedicated track-rat which would be hella fun).I had a pretty big off on turn 9 at laguna seca last week in the M3 ,Everything was fine I was running constant 1.50s , last run last lap slid off the track spun ,re-entered the track hit a small drainage ditch went airborne landed and kissed the tire wall real gently.I lost a tire and creased my wheel arch.

At driver schools or Hpde there is not that much car-car contact but you do fall off the track if you push it or have a mechanical/tire failure

Point being if I was in my coupe there would have been a whole load more damage to the body, spoiler would have been gone , probably would need a whole new front clip or even totaled the car. Safety wise the stock coupe seat belts aren't really that good so there could have even been an injury .That would have been the shits.

I was lucky ,I could drive the car home .

There is a certain nostalga driving a coupe on the track , I would reccomend taking your newer car out first though. E30s and e36s are better handling and way faster and SAFER. And if you wad it up there are 500,000 more out there to replace them