Minivansomeren
Member
Yeah I was rounding, but put 30,500 in the spreadsheet. So only missing 65 E9s
And I was going off Wikipedia numbers, where it says a total of 71k E3s. Which E3 models am I missing?
M30B35-Powered 1973 BMW 3.0CS 5-Speed sold 2020 back on BAT
- Thread starter bmw2800cs
- Start date
And I was going off Wikipedia numbers, where it says a total of 71k E3s. Which E3 models am I missing?
Don’t get me wrong, I love the Wiki, but anyone can create an article and provide some footnotes and it becomes gospel and is impossible to change. The e3 source that I trust is here:
bmw-e3-club.de
We don’t have numbers by year other than model start date and completion date of production.
The e9 Wiki numbers have been incorrect for years, the correct numbers are here:
BMW E3 Club | E3 Fahrgestellnummern
Liste der Fahrgestellnummern sortiert nach Modellen
bmw-e3-club.de
We don’t have numbers by year other than model start date and completion date of production.
The e9 Wiki numbers have been incorrect for years, the correct numbers are here:
Minivansomeren
Member
Well that’s all good to know. The E9 numbers on wiki are only off by 0.06% so very close. But you’re saying that there were over 220,000 E3 sedans?!? That’s a huge discrepancy from wiki and also compared to the E9. I know that sedans are more practical but 7 sedans per 1 coupe is a lot, and I guess further underscores the relative rarity of E9s compared to other chassis’.Don’t get me wrong, I love the Wiki, but anyone can create an article and provide some footnotes and it becomes gospel and is impossible to change. The e3 source that I trust is here:
BMW E3 Club | E3 Fahrgestellnummern
Liste der Fahrgestellnummern sortiert nach Modellen
We don’t have numbers by year other than model start date and completion date of production.
The e9 Wiki numbers have been incorrect for years, the correct numbers are here:
And I’m sorry I never meant to mislead people with incorrect info. It was just a quick project for my own interest, but then I thought @ElGrecko had interesting thoughts about the future of the market. The generational component is also interesting to me. At 38, I’m probably younger than average here. I like 80s and 90s bimmers from my youth, but I’ve always thought of the 60s as the golden age of car design.
And lastly, I didn’t mean to derail the chat from this black coupe on BAT! We can commence discussion. I’m gonna go with $42k RNM
No one thinks you were trying to mislead anyone, it is just the nature of the internet.
That portion of the Wiki article quoted was only referring to E3 production for the North America market.
BMW New Six - Wikipedia
Minivansomeren
Member
Aah I see, up above it says “The E3 Sedan was in production from 1968–1978, with a total of circa 190,000 cars produced. Of these, 71,804 were of the US-only "Bavaria" model.”That portion of the Wiki article quoted was only referring to E3 production for the North America market.
BMW New Six - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Confusingly laid out but I guess that’s the nature of Wikipedia. I will update.
There are many other errors in that Wiki article. The table shows the Bavaria being produced from 1968 thru 1975. It also states that in 1972 through 1975 there were two models, the Bavaria and the 3.0S which is incorrect. The model years of 1972 through 1974 known as the 3.0S Bavaria, they are not separate cars. Only MY 1971 was known as the Bavaria only. It states the 2800 was offered with power windows and power sunroof, I have never seen one of these but I could be wrong. The footnotes are to a single article in German which I cannot find and therefore cannot be verified. The Wiki was also written from a UK perspective as they love to reference police versions and other one-offs.
The German e3 site lists 24,708 USA Export cars which also includes Central and South America and of those 19,567 were the 3.0S and 3.0Si. I trust the German e3 Club with their research. You can submit and request corrections to the Wiki but they require a documented data source and referencing a Forum or a Club does not count. I once tried to submit a correction to their e9 numbers and it was not possible unfortunately. End of my rant, sorry to burden everyone with this!
The German e3 site lists 24,708 USA Export cars which also includes Central and South America and of those 19,567 were the 3.0S and 3.0Si. I trust the German e3 Club with their research. You can submit and request corrections to the Wiki but they require a documented data source and referencing a Forum or a Club does not count. I once tried to submit a correction to their e9 numbers and it was not possible unfortunately. End of my rant, sorry to burden everyone with this!
ElGrecko
Active Member
There really isn't a good comparison between lower production cars like E9 and mass produced cars like Camaros and Corvette's and very low production cars like Maserati's and Ferrari's. The only ones that can be compared are the very limited production variants. For instance, while Corvette production in the 70's was around 25k per year there were some low production variants like the LT1 that in 1970 they only produced just under 2000 cars. While a well restored 350 Corvette that they made thousands of is nice, an LT-1 is a whole nother animal... Tim Chitwood was a friend in college and he had one (when your daddy is a chevy dealer you had to have the best). That car was a monster, it would flat take your breath away. In the late 80's they only made around 250 Z07 Corvettes per year. That was a special performance package with bigger brakes, different suspension and other things that made that car very different from the country club cruiser base car. That's why at auction the big money goes to the rare and very special cars that were truly low production specimens that while they were based on high production cars, the numbers of really special cars were actually very low. And while they made 100,000 first generation Z28's, there were always some special options packages with limited availability that make some of them actually pretty rare and desirable. Rarity is only part of it. To be truly valuable the car has to not only be rare, but it has to be special and that means exceptionally good looks or high performance and if you have both then that's what it takes to bring the big bucks.
Minivansomeren
Member
Yeah I know you’re right. The E9 CSL is hugely rare, historically important (///M), beautiful, and successful on the track, and therefore valuable.
But I personally think the standard E9 models are even more beautiful, and so I wanted to see: if you just want the particular chassis shape, either original or as a base for a resto mod, how does the E9 compare?
And while a 3.0CS will never be a blue chip car like a CSL or split window C2 or Ferrari GTO… I think they do pretty well by your criteria in that next tier down of “collectible and attainable and drivable” classic car. They were important for establishing BMWs reputation as a drivers car and race car. They are extremely beautiful. And even before the tin worm started to work, they were quite rare compared to the other desirable chassis’ from the era.
Guys who can afford a CSL or Aston DB5 or whatever are in another league from me. Some of them may not even care about the car. They just see it as a way to diversify the portfolio when the market is down. But I think there will always be car guys who fall in love with a particular model, and want to own one some day. And among that crowd, the E9 is quite rare by the numbers and will always command a premium over your average Camaro or Gen-1 911 or E-type etc
ElGrecko
Active Member
I'm in violent agreement with everything you said. I think that the CS is extraordinarily handsome and at the time was a very special car. I think of cars like the GTO and the other cars bodied by Scaglietti as beautiful. The CS is handsome with great proportions, and like a fine Armani suit it will never go out of style. As I said in my intro, I saw my first CS when I was in the showroom buying a 1600 in 1968 and it's been on the bucket list ever since. My only problem is that i don't want to take on too big a project at my age (75) but want to pay $75k for a nice original one. What I need is a solid no rust car like an automatic with a tired engine and then I could build what I want from there. I'm not into restomods. If you want a new car with all the computers and bells and whistles go buy one. I'm thinking more in the vein of what you would have if you sent a carbureted CSL to Alpina in early 1972. Built motor, 45 DCOE's, dog leg 5 speed, LSD and the easy lightening things done to the CSL (no PS no PB aluminum hood and trunk lid (they're a bit pricey but available). It's as close to a CSL that you could get without spending well into 6 figures. And it would be a driver albeit a pretty sporting one. If an errant trucker destroys your CSL there's no replacing it. This is something you could drive and enjoy the heck out of it and if it got totaled it would hurt but it's not irreplaceable.
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mkekiddoc
Well-Known Member
Great comments on this thread.
I am still a big fan of certain, special American muscle cars - particularly the rare, handsome, and brutal ones such as the Corvette L-79 (1966-67) and LT-1 (1970-72), Chevelle LS-6, 1970-73 Trans-Ams and Formulas, etc. For what I paid for my coupe, I could have owned a rather special one. But the "special" muscle cars, while known to aficionados of the genre, still mostly look like the pedestrian, mass-produced models.
The E9 coupe, however, stops others in their tracks by its beauty. It resembles almost nothing else, and will forever cause be to stop and turn around after locking the doors and walking away. And as we know, it is a vastly different motoring experience than the muscle car, but one I have gladly embraced - especially on roads that aren't straight or just 1/4 in length.
I am still a big fan of certain, special American muscle cars - particularly the rare, handsome, and brutal ones such as the Corvette L-79 (1966-67) and LT-1 (1970-72), Chevelle LS-6, 1970-73 Trans-Ams and Formulas, etc. For what I paid for my coupe, I could have owned a rather special one. But the "special" muscle cars, while known to aficionados of the genre, still mostly look like the pedestrian, mass-produced models.
The E9 coupe, however, stops others in their tracks by its beauty. It resembles almost nothing else, and will forever cause be to stop and turn around after locking the doors and walking away. And as we know, it is a vastly different motoring experience than the muscle car, but one I have gladly embraced - especially on roads that aren't straight or just 1/4 in length.
mkekiddoc
Well-Known Member
....1/4 mile in length....