Mazda Luce vs BMW cs

[Cole]

I just returned from the Mooneyes show in Yokohama Japan and came upon a late 60s Mazda Luce ...............It is a mini cs , Mazda flat Ass copied BMW.

check it out, a few cars down page.

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2010/12/06/event-gt-gt-mooneyes-hot-rod-custom-show-10-pt2.aspx

 

[HB Chris]

Alfa Romeo Berlina perhaps but coupe I don't see.

 

[Cole]

Thanks for info, The lil Mazda's bumpers,tail and headlights and general shape is very close.

 

[jmackro]

I'm not sure I see any of the e9 / Mazde Luce's DNA in the Corvair. But, the series 2 Corvair has to be one of the prettiest production cars ever built.

 

[MMercury]

The same designer impacted both Mazda's Luce and the precursor to the E9. The design of the subject Mazda is attributed to Giorgetto Giugiaro. Since this same designer was instrumental in the design of the 3200cs (the coupe that immediately preceded the E9), any similarities are not purely coincidental. (Giuguaro was evidently working for the Bertone design firm at the time and some at least co-credit Nuccio Bertone with the 3200CS design. http://www.bmwism.com/bmws_designers.htm )

Others have commented on the strong similarity between the particular 4-door model you focused on and the E3. Both cars share what has become known as BMW's signature "hofmeister kink" (see circled area below). But so do many cars, some of which Giugiaro purportedly designed, including the Alfetta, M1, '62 Ferrari 250 GTO 250gtZagato and a long list of others. (Whether independently designed or inspired by some of the above mentioned cars, the Chevrolet Vega notably sported similar rear side window treatment.) Arguably, that same rear side window treatment existed well before BMW's employment of the same as evidenced by the '49 Cadillac. More "kink," here: http://hooniverse.com/2010/09/23/encyclopedia-hoonatica-hofmeister-kink/

Comparing coach shapes, wheel arches, roof lines and grille layouts is an unending exercise. Including Mazda's Luce, some find styling cues shared by the E3, E9 and Opel's Manta, Audi's 100ls. Triumph's Stag, Jensen's Interceptor and, even Chevrolet's Corvair. One might argue Ford's Anglia and the Mini Moke should be on the list too. They both have four wheels, a steering wheel and one has a roof line.:confused::???:

 

[Honolulu]

Mazda Luce looks like Fiat product to me. The rear shot posted does have very nearly a CS bumper. Given all the Japanese copying of other products, I'd go with calling the Luce a copy as well.

Thanks Mmercury for all the cool pictures.

 

[PaulinPa]

One more precursor to coupe?Lamborghini Islero.Centerfold pic in July 2009 Hemmings Sports and Exotic mag looks like a prototype coupe,right down to a "badge" on the rear pillar and grilles on the side fenders.Even useless rear seats!Wheels are kind of similar too.Limited production run of 225 in '68-'69.Price a bit saltier $44-104K!Sorry can't scan and post pic.

 

[MMercury]

One more precursor to coupe?Lamborghini Islero.Centerfold pic in July 2009 Hemmings Sports and Exotic mag looks like a prototype coupe,right down to a "badge" on the rear pillar and grilles on the side fenders.Even useless rear seats!Wheels are kind of similar too.Limited production run of 225 in '68-'69.Price a bit saltier $44-104K!Sorry can't scan and post pic.

 

[PaulinPa]

Thanks for posting pic.Have to admit it looks less like a coupe from that view.

 

[JohnHein]

I had a 1981 Mazda 626 coupe. I bought it at the time because I really liked my parent's BMW 2002. I needed a newer reliable car. The style is also reminiscent of the BMW coupes:


http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Pictures-c7377-pi9409642-1981-626.html#pi6932070

 

[MMercury]

Confused??

As was alluded to in an earlier post, finding similarities in car design can often be like interpreting an Esher drawing. Sometimes the similarities are patent. Sometimes latent. Sometimes, imaginary. :wink:

Ford suggests it is easy to confuse its 1977-78-79 Ford Monarch/Granada models with Mercedes' 280.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdw0L0SrFmA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPatuT5W898

Confusing?:???:

 

[pamp]

Just for fun

Here is one from Russia, those bonnet grills...

 

[MMercury]

Here is one from Russia, those bonnet grills...

It does not have scoops or louvers on its fenders, but this orange-wheeled Lada may be a distant cousin. Or . . . maybe its a very secret Lamborghini prototype? :wink:

 

[David]

I never knew a out the lambo. Just amazing. My new favorite.

 

[Ara]

Late 60's??

Late 60's? You mean e9 is a copy of Mazda. My guess the Mazda is a copy of Alfa.

There is an Alfa (can't rmember the model) that looks very simillar to e9, a bit smaller though (not the one in the pic). If not mistaken by the same Italina designer (can't spell the name). Production of the Alfa was after e9.

 

[MMercury]

More grist for the mill?

Late 60's? You mean e9 is a copy of Mazda. My guess the Mazda is a copy of Alfa.

There is an Alfa (can't rmember the model) that looks very simillar to e9, a bit smaller though (not the one in the pic). If not mistaken by the same Italina designer (can't spell the name). Production of the Alfa was after e9.

Most independent designers exist to produce original designs within obvious constraints (four wheels, passengers, storage, safety and engine placement). Yet despite a designer’s best efforts, some designs probably cannot help escape the specter of being derivative. Establishing a design's lineage is a daunting task, especially when the same design firm is affiliated with many manufacturers, or when designers leave one firm for a competitor, or when the designers are "related," or when the designers share the same or similar chassis, platform, or propulsion schemes. Another variation on the same theme is a possibility that some designers take the design plan rejected by one manufacturer and pitch a "revised" version of the same plan to a different manufacturer. :?: Here, is an Alfa board discussion that ponders this situation with Bertone, Alfa and Mazda. http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-history/34404-alfa-mazda-1500-a.html

When comparing Mazda's Luce with other cars sharing similar styling it is unclear if it is the proverbial chicken or the egg. Here is what Mazda says: "On August 20, 1966, we introduced a flagship model known as the Luce. The body style, characterized by an "A line" connecting front, center and rear pillars, was based on a Bertone original design from Italy, which was modified by Mazda's designers to suit the company's taste. The model name, taken from the Italian "Luce"-meaning bright or shiny-was fitting for such a modern, elegantly designed car that radiated a dazzling personality and was far superior to the Japanese car standard at the time." http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/greatcar/p8.html


Besides the works credited to designer Giorgetto Giugiaro, another impressive body of work is attributed to Marcello Gandini. He is credited, while at Bertone, with having designed Lamborghini's Miura and Countach; Lancia’s Stratos; Alfa’s Montreal and Carabo; and the E9's cousin, BMW 's E12. Not to be ignored is Leonardo Fioravanti, whose designs while affiliated with Pininfarina include the Ferrari Daytona and the Berlinetta Boxer. (Unaware of Fioravanti’s direct involvement with any BMW models, although it would not be a surprise to learn that some exist.)

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Site designating primary attribution of BMW designs to specific designers: http://www.bmwism.com/bmws_designers.htm

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After scrutinizing contemporary offerings long enough, who is to say most of these cars don't share some of the same DNA? :wink:

 

[MMercury]

Familiar fender accoutrements?

Interesting front fender styling cue on 2010 Ford Taurus, 2011 Cadillac Escalade, Chevy Volt and 2011 Kia Optima. Followed by curious collection of other familiar fender accoutrements. Form following function? Derivative? Of what?

 

[rsporsche]

is anybody else getting tired of seeing this post keep resurrecting itself seemingly unchanged? it was interesting the first 2 times.

 

[Ara]

late 60's

Re; MMercury, I agree with you, I was just pointing out the timing, they were both late 60's (e9 late, late 60's).

btw, great info and pics.

 

[MMercury]

On the continuing subject of E9 styling similarities, consider the '63-'65 Iso Rivolta, attributed to Bertone's Giorgetto Giugiaro, and the Maserati Mexico (with a dash of '61 AMC, '55 BMW followed by Giovanni Michelotti's BMW 1600, and B Leyland Triumph stylings and pot luck. :???

The graphics are large, so administrator/s, feel free to delete.

The Maserati Mexico:

and the ISO:

Hmmmm???

And from a previous post on this forum: 1955?

Microcars? Chips off the old block?