My issues with E9COUPE.COM

[chicane]

I am getting more than a little perturbed with SOME of the attitudes on this board.
The prevailing "Conventional Wisdom" on this board seems to fall in one of several categories:

1. "Dump that bucket." There seems to be a concerted effort to convince new E9 owners that the car they are looking to buy or just bought is a complete rust bucket and not worth the time, effort or cash to repair. regardless of the skills, money, or commitment the new owner may have towards the "new" car (which the E9 poster never bothers to find out first, before posting). It often gets to the point where posters are merely piling on and never give a word of encouragement to move forward with the noble task of taking on an E9 as a project car to the new owner.

2. How do I increase the performance of my car? The e9coupe.com answer = drop in a 3.5. Wow. So, the guys on this board in their inevitable wisdom seem to have the edge on the Wizards of Bavaria. Maybe there was a reason why they wanted a 3.0 in the E9 in the first place (BMW could have designed and dropped in a bigger engine). It doesn't take any skill to just drop in a bigger engine. How about suggesting some valid alternatives to keep that original 3.0 in the car.

3. "HOW MUCH IS MY CAR WORTH?" Like this only gets asked twice a week. OK here is the answer...it's worth $5 LESS (adjusted for inflation) then the last time you asked. What is this car part of your retirement strategy? These cars (with potentially the exception of the CSL) are not going to suddenly see some massive appreciation in value. Drive, them, enjoy them, and relax.

You see after all of the modding of E9's promoted on this board (specifically 3.5 transplants) and the crushing of cars per #1 there will hardly be anymore all original E9's left on the planet. But I surmise that that is part of the core goal here. If you can get more guys to drop in 3.5's and otherwise crush their rusted E9's then your all original E9 goes up in value...ahhh... ingenious.

4. It's right because I say so. Recently I intentionally questioned the validity of lightweight steel on production CSL's, and sure enough the usual suspects did not fail to disappoint. I call them Know-It-Less' (Because I don't think we have many Know-It-All's). If the Know-It-Less' on this board could spend less time trying to convince people that they know something that they don't and more time directing this posters to the users or documentation that holds the knowledge that need, e9coupe.com would be a much friendlier place.

I hate to paint the entire board with a broad brush because I know there are a lot of really great people on this board but the few usual suspects that continually chime in a manner that does not contribute to an atmosphere of education and harmony.

The goal here is not to vent but to make the board a better community where information is shared not dictated. Where people are open to new ideas and everyone gets to contribute and have a voice.

Thanks.

 

[Bryce]

Well I can claim to know very little about E9s! Have spent way too much money and time on my CSL, and currently have a whole lot of bits stacked, rebuilt and repainted ready to reinstate the car to its former glory.

So I totally appreciate every comment and every opinion from all that contribute to the site!

In my opinion it's very good advise to warn anyone starting out that the purchase price is only the start of their costs. I've spent more than the cars worth so am interested to see what others think current values are - my wife's very interested! I'm interested in performance but don't mind doing it cheaper and easier using a 3.5 - I'm sure if someone wanted to use their original block then they can ask the question.

I may be an E9 virgin but I'm not totally naive, so I read with interest all comments and opinions, research all over, and then try and form my own opinion - I know what I'm seeking from the car and I'm not guided by others as to what I want. But I do appreciate seeing what others are doing with their cars.

The lack of absolute truths in some strange way helps keep the passion for the car alive - if it was so easy and there was a little handbook with every question answered there would be less need for e9coupe.com.

The only reading that's not so enjoyable are discussions that have turned to bickering sessions. But hey that's also symptomatic of high levels of passion so maybe its all good.

I'd better get of this box and start changing the suspension I've promised myself on my 70 series Cruiser. No I don't know what Im doing with this project either.

Cheers, Bryce

 

[x_atlas0]

I am getting more than a little perturbed with SOME of the attitudes on this board.
The prevailing "Conventional Wisdom" on this board seems to fall in one of several categories:

1. "Dump that bucket." There seems to be a concerted effort to convince new E9 owners that the car they are looking to buy or just bought is a complete rust bucket and not worth the time, effort or cash to repair. regardless of the skills, money, or commitment the new owner may have towards the "new" car (which the E9 poster never bothers to find out first, before posting). It often gets to the point where posters are merely piling on and never give a word of encouragement to move forward with the noble task of taking on an E9 as a project car to the new owner.

2. How do I increase the performance of my car? The e9coupe.com answer = drop in a 3.5. Wow. So, the guys on this board in their inevitable wisdom seem to have the edge on the Wizards of Bavaria. Maybe there was a reason why they wanted a 3.0 in the E9 in the first place (BMW could have designed and dropped in a bigger engine). It doesn't take any skill to just drop in a bigger engine. How about suggesting some valid alternatives to keep that original 3.0 in the car.

3. "HOW MUCH IS MY CAR WORTH?" Like this only gets asked twice a week. OK here is the answer...it's worth $5 LESS (adjusted for inflation) then the last time you asked. What is this car part of your retirement strategy? These cars (with potentially the exception of the CSL) are not going to suddenly see some massive appreciation in value. Drive, them, enjoy them, and relax.

You see after all of the modding of E9's promoted on this board (specifically 3.5 transplants) and the crushing of cars per #1 there will hardly be anymore all original E9's left on the planet. But I surmise that that is part of the core goal here. If you can get more guys to drop in 3.5's and otherwise crush their rusted E9's then your all original E9 goes up in value...ahhh... ingenious.

4. It's right because I say so. Recently I intentionally questioned the validity of lightweight steel on production CSL's, and sure enough the usual suspects did not fail to disappoint. I call them Know-It-Less' (Because I don't think we have many Know-It-All's). If the Know-It-Less' on this board could spend less time trying to convince people that they know something that they don't and more time directing this posters to the users or documentation that holds the knowledge that need, e9coupe.com would be a much friendlier place.

I hate to paint the entire board with a broad brush because I know there are a lot of really great people on this board but the few usual suspects that continually chime in a manner that does not contribute to an atmosphere of education and harmony.

The goal here is not to vent but to make the board a better community where information is shared not dictated. Where people are open to new ideas and everyone gets to contribute and have a voice.

Thanks.

1- Many people would like to put in as much or less than the end value of the car to restore it. Given the cost of bodywork, and how not everybody has a shed and tools like Malc, it isn't cost effective to restore the really far gone cars. There's many collectors that want to restore the car so they can flip it. To that point, extensive bodywork really doesn't allow that sort of operation. Not every owner wants to put in 20-30k worth of bodywork into a car that will only be worth 20 at the end. Given how rusted many of the coupes are, it isn't a scare tactic, it is a valid option. So, it is then a question of pick your posion: would you rather have the board saying to make it a parts car, or would you prefer there to be many threads about half-finished projects or cars with bad bodywork?

2- BMW did drop in a bigger engine. Look at their race cars and later cars. Boring a stroking is a perfectly valid means of increasing power, it was something they did at the time and everybody still does today. What would you prefer, patching an E23 745i turbo on the thing? (while that would be a hoot and a half, it would negate the originality thing you are going for. I'm more of a twin-screw FI person myself.) The cheapest way to get more reliable power is to bore and stroke it. BMW already did this with the 3.5's, so why go through all the cost of doing that to the original block? I did it since my block was toast, so originality was already out the window. Plus, when people want to keep the 3.0, there are still lots of options, which usually get mentioned, like a 282 cam, a P&P, headers, triple 40 carbs, or 320i intake runners for the CSi guys. The info is out there, but it doesn't mean a 3.5 is the wrong way to go. Even then, you could do the same modifications to the original motor, it would just cost more.

3- I will admit, it does get a little old, but it isn't entirely unexpected. I'd say some of it is reasonable for insurance purposes. Plus, I wouldn't expect many of the new people to look for the last value thread. We could start a parked thread, where the selling price of coupes is recorded. That would hopefully reduce the number of value threads.

4- The need for documentation, while certainly reasonable, is much harder to pull off in practice. The BMW archive guys could be of great help, but it would seem that they would prefer to not aid us in such endeavours. There are many books on the cars, but even then, it isn't as though they have a bibliography detailing their sources most of the time. Unfortunately, I would say that many things have simply been lost, or the people with the direct knowledge (meaning they helped design the car) aren't on here.

The other Mods and I do try to take such things under advisement.

 

[chicane]

1- Many people would like to put in as much or less than the end value of the car to restore it. Given the cost of bodywork, and how not everybody has a shed and tools like Malc, it isn't cost effective to restore the really far gone cars. There's many collectors that want to restore the car so they can flip it. To that point, extensive bodywork really doesn't allow that sort of operation. Not every owner wants to put in 20-30k worth of bodywork into a car that will only be worth 20 at the end. Given how rusted many of the coupes are, it isn't a scare tactic, it is a valid option. So, it is then a question of pick your posion: would you rather have the board saying to make it a parts car, or would you prefer there to be many threads about half-finished projects or cars with bad bodywork?

2- BMW did drop in a bigger engine. Look at their race cars and later cars. Boring a stroking is a perfectly valid means of increasing power, it was something they did at the time and everybody still does today. What would you prefer, patching an E23 745i turbo on the thing? (while that would be a hoot and a half, it would negate the originality thing you are going for. I'm more of a twin-screw FI person myself.) The cheapest way to get more reliable power is to bore and stroke it. BMW already did this with the 3.5's, so why go through all the cost of doing that to the original block? I did it since my block was toast, so originality was already out the window. Plus, when people want to keep the 3.0, there are still lots of options, which usually get mentioned, like a 282 cam, a P&P, headers, triple 40 carbs, or 320i intake runners for the CSi guys. The info is out there, but it doesn't mean a 3.5 is the wrong way to go. Even then, you could do the same modifications to the original motor, it would just cost more.

3- I will admit, it does get a little old, but it isn't entirely unexpected. I'd say some of it is reasonable for insurance purposes. Plus, I wouldn't expect many of the new people to look for the last value thread. We could start a parked thread, where the selling price of coupes is recorded. That would hopefully reduce the number of value threads.

4- The need for documentation, while certainly reasonable, is much harder to pull off in practice. The BMW archive guys could be of great help, but it would seem that they would prefer to not aid us in such endeavours. There are many books on the cars, but even then, it isn't as though they have a bibliography detailing their sources most of the time. Unfortunately, I would say that many things have simply been lost, or the people with the direct knowledge (meaning they helped design the car) aren't on here.

The other Mods and I do try to take such things under advisement.

1. I think the FAQ and the SEARCH function can fill them in just fine. they don't need the e9coupe SHOCK Theater to scare them away. I mean most of the guys doing the rust scare have never picked up an air tool in their life they are just parroting back what other have said.

2. My point here is that the cars should be enjoyed as close to OEM as possible. I have seen a post recently about a guy wanting to stuff an S54 in an E9?! Are you kidding me? These cars are fun to drive much as they came from the factory. And if that doesn't do it for you think of the diminished value of your car after you pull the original engine.

3. A little old? It is almost an obsession on this board. Watching your E9 increase in value is like watching grass grow. It is as though these guys think they are sitting on a one of Bugatti or something. Let it go you are not going to make a ton of money and retire by selling your E9.

4. I have a Mobile Tradition guy that I email from time to time. He is very nice. he admires the old cars and he answers all of my tech questions. That and a repository would be nice.

 

[corsachili]

Chicane,

I'm not going to dissect all of the questions and comments you make here but I will say that generally speaking there have been fairly few contentious threads in the entire history of this board. We're a pretty mellow group. I've been involved in internet related email lists and groups for various vehicles for over 14 years and inevitably there are confrontations that arise, usually due to the lack of nuance that's involved in written communications.

Regarding your question about performance enhancements being relegated to "drop a bigger motor in it", the 3 liter D-jet motor is not a great candidate for upgrades. The carb'd models do benefit from a performance cam and either dual or triple Webers, and those topics have been discussed in this and other forums ad infinitum.

As far as the value of these cars, you may have read my post. I think they're cool cars, but I don't expect massive valuations and that's not why I own them.

There's some good knowledge on this board. Was it TR that said "trust but verify"? I'm not suggesting that we don't call each other on our statements not based on empirical research, but we should respect the knowledge and wisdom of this board.

 

[x_atlas0]

1. I think the FAQ and the SEARCH function can fill them in just fine. they don't need the e9coupe SHOCK Theater to scare them away. I mean most of the guys doing the rust scare have never picked up an air tool in their life they are just parroting back what other have said.

2. My point here is that the cars should be enjoyed as close to OEM as possible. I have seen a post recently about a guy wanting to stuff an S54 in an E9?! Are you kidding me? These cars are fun to drive much as they came from the factory. And if that doesn't do it for you think of the diminished value of your car after you pull the original engine.

3. A little old? It is almost an obsession on this board. Watching your E9 increase in value is like watching grass grow. It is as though these guys think they are sitting on a one of Bugatti or something. Let it go you are not going to make a ton of money and retire by selling your E9.

4. I have a Mobile Tradition guy that I email from time to time. He is very nice. he admires the old cars and he answers all of my tech questions. That and a repository would be nice.

1-So, as I understand it, your main point of issue is the level at which a car is declared a parts car. You currently feel the bar is set too high, and could stand to be lowered. I'd say that point is entirely dependent on the individual's budget (in both time and money) and how attached the person is to the car in question. In SoCal, for example, I'd venture that the accepteable rust level is fairly low, given the relatively high density of these cars in that area versus, say, Michigan. As such, in Michigan, more rust is ok because you won't find a better one in the area unless more digging is done. Many people want to start out with the best example they can get, not the first one they find.

2-You mentioned the value of the cars, and how it isn't exactly a nest egg. In that case, why not do whatever you want to the car? For CSL's, sure, I can see your point, but for the regular cars, why not have some fun with it? Right now, mods don't hurt the value in the least. In another 10-20 years, sure, I would say they will, as originality will become more valuable that having a "finished" example. It isn't like most of the people are dropping in LS1's and T56's and making radical drag cars. The majority of the mods are done to enhance the existing characteristics, rather than drastically replace them. (eg. the 5 speeds, FI, LSD swaps, carbs)

3-At the moment, on the front page of the general discussion section, there's one thread, which got off on the tangent about the metal thickness. That isn't exactly a glut. Besides, if you don't want to read about it, don't.

4-The MT guys I have dealt with have been either dismissive or non-responsive. I even had a few of my German friends translate my message for me, to no avail.

 

[jhjacobs]

All in all, despite any controversy or differences of opinions, this board is a fantastic resource and most of the people here are great (even if we differ in opinion or facts). What we do with our cars should be a matter of personal choice - in my opinion the main things are enjoyment and preservation. I am trying to keep my coupe mostly OEM but I have crossed the line with a 5 speed, big alternator, webers (soon to go away), and soon to be install spring and swaybar kit. I've also got a hideous shift knob that is definitely not OEM. I'm also considering dropping my spare tire well about 1 inch (it's getting replaced) to accommodate wider rubber.

Personally, I have made lots of great new friends here and I been fortunate enough to meet a fair number of you. I look forward to a long relationship with the forum and all of the people here - even if we get the occasional rabid purist, extreme modifier, or novice with a stupid question or point of view. All of this is far easier to deal with than my wife.

I find the "value" discussions here interesting an amusing. I would never sell my coupe but I do like to think that it is not depreciating like my 540i. I've also been trying to convince my wife to let me buy 3 our 4 coupes with the logic that they won't depreciate. She mutter stuff about wasting time a money keeping them running. Oh well.

My final point .... keep the rants coming. They are a great source of entertainment.

“If you don’t believe the legend, then you can’t really take yourself seriously, and if you don’t take yourself seriously, you’ve got a chance. It’s when you take yourself seriously and you begin to believe all this bullshit that you can really founder.” -- Paul Newman

 

[dang]

Personally, I think everyone needs to keep one thing in mind.... THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM!. Period. There will be extreme views and opinions on every topic and the readers need to decipher what's useful and what isn't.

I still believe that new or potential E9 owners are always better off visiting this forum than not.

Even this thread is a civilized discussion about differences of opinion. Chicane may come across as someone who stirs it up a bit, which can be good for discussion at times, but he also doesn't call people names or act immature like so many members on other boards.

Note to Chicane... By posting this topic in a structured civilized manner, you've added this info to search results in the future. There's a really good chance that someone looking for opinions on E9 ownership will come across this topic and have more data to help them make their decision, or at the very least continue with their research.

Its all good! :wink:

Dan

 

[x_atlas0]

Personally, I think everyone needs to keep one thing in mind.... THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM!. Period. There will be extreme views and opinions on every topic and the readers need to decipher what's useful and what isn't.

I still believe that new or potential E9 owners are always better off visiting this forum than not.

Even this thread is a civilized discussion about differences of opinion. Chicane may come across as someone who stirs it up a bit, which can be good for discussion at times, but he also doesn't call people names or act immature like so many members on other boards.

Note to Chicane... By posting this topic in a structured civilized manner, you've added this info to search results in the future. There's a really good chance that someone looking for opinions on E9 ownership will come across this topic and have more data to help them make their decision, or at the very least continue with their research.

Its all good! :wink:

Dan

Indeed, Dan. I am overjoyed about how even a disagreement is civilized, certainly moreso than many other boards. I hope that it may continue.

 

[Adam]

this brings up an important question: how much is my E9 worth?

:lol:


-Adam

 

[velocewest]

I'm certainly one of the people that leans towards telling people to skip rusty cars. I'm not the most experienced coupe expert here, but I am an experienced mechanic, restorer and general wrench-bender, and I post what I believe to be true based on my experience. It's free advice, and worth what you pay for it, but if you don't have deep pockets or the skills to do detailed fabrication, it could be advice that saves someone from ending up in a money pit. These are not cars that will be worth $100,000 when you wrap up the resto like some rusty 70's MOPAR.

I don't think the only answer given to performance questions is "drop in a 3.5", but if you want to have more power, there is STILL no cost-comparable substitute for cubic inches. The Wizards of Bavaria didn't have a 3.5 when they originated the e9, but as soon as they did, it went in. They proceeded to build bigger and bigger engines to provide more power. The M cars ended up with 3.8 liter 6's and went on to V8's. Building a smaller engine to approximate or exceed the power of a larger engine will always cost more. That's not a reason NOT to do that, but needs to be considered when you're deciding how fa$t you want to go.

I don't care much about the value issue beyond making sure my insurance is sufficient, and value is such an unstable concept that I've decided not to participate in those discussions going forward.

As far as the "Know-It-Less'", I know what I know, and I share it when appropriate. I have no illusions about my influence. If I know of documentation, I usually try to direct people to it, or offer some reason beyond "because I said so" that is based on a common principle or more widely known truth. Most of the more esoteric info that comes up on this board is about CSL's, and I don't care, so I just ignore it. I do know we lost one good contributor to this board and the CSR mailing list who is well regarded as a CSL expert, because he grew tired of being constantly challenged to prove his statements.

Anyone is welcome to disagree with me, and should not expect an emotionally charged response. I may hold to my position and point out glaring errors in other's perceptions on occasion, but I'm not going to waste a bunch of time arguing.

Two questions for you, Chicane -- first, why do you not have any reference to your real name on the board? Any particular reason you don't want your real name known? And second -- do you think that constantly challenging people who try to contribute to the shared knowledge of this board is helping build our community?