Pondering Question?!

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CSfan

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Hey Guys!!

Makes for a good discussion. Why don't the CS price compare to the Porsche's of the same era?

I consider and among some of the lending literature publish the CS is one of the most beautiful car ever built. For a top notch condition CS,i, I've seen the market at 25-30K , Say for a Porsche 911 there about 45-70K(some even higher) depending on the letter behind it T,E,L , S

I've seen more Porsche's then CS's.

Enlighten me?
 
i think higher

i think you're low for a 'top condition csi', or maybe i just want to believe that cuz i paid a lot more than that for mine :). also the definition of 'top condition' will vary widely from owner to owner. but having canvased the market for almost 2 years before buying my car last year, here is what i found:
- peter (coupeking) seems to charge the most for his cars - $40k for a very clean but not imo, 'top condition' car - ie not all the sought-after mods (3.5, motronic, etc) - there is a car like this for sale now on his website for $39k. i believe a full restoration from him is around $80k, and then there are some cars from him in between that. i think he sells several cars a year in this range (40-80k).
- i bought my car from peter, paid $48k, and i love it, drive it every day. and i was able to insure the car for $50k.
- a friend of mine (after drooling over my car for several months) just bought a great car, paid around $20k, and to get it to a sim level as my car will spend another $30k, so will be around what i paid.

so, other than a 'bespoke' car from peter, i would put the top of the market currently at $50k for a 'top condition' cs, or again, maybe im just trying to make myself feel better about spending that much myself. either way, wouldnt sell my car for $50k, and compared to buying a new bmw, which is what my car looks and drives like, this seems like a bargain to me.

just my 2 cents.
 
Alan,

I think your opinion is right on for a 'top condition' coupe excluding CSLs of course. It is always a matter of the right car for the right buyer, not an overnight process by any means, but those who are patient like you were will spend this amount and be very pleased with their purchase.
 
50.000 USD in Europe

In the last 6-9 months several cars have been offered at around 40.000 EUR which is about 50k $. Absolute top CSi cars, but perhaps not upgraded with 5-speeds, limited slip differentials or 3.5L engines.
Don´t know what they actually sell for, but prices have definitely gone up lately. The average cars remain fairly cheap.
 
The answer in part is due in part that Porsche's have been slightly ahead of the valuation curve and have a longer history with the model which has been more of a refinement over the years than a radical new model. ( Air cooled)

E9s are coming up in value. More known now and perhaps accepted since there are many BMWs of all types now ( new) and still ( in the case of classics) which is a function of time and public perception.( generational to some degree.) I certainly see more E9s for sale now than ever.

One theory is that as new car prices go up so does the remaining classic examples as Allan states and therefore more desireable.

Condition, those E9s left ( there is a finite number) generally recieve better care now than once might have been the case with some owners. As those numbers dwindle, the price goes up for those remaining. ( I would now think twice about cutting up a car that in the past would not have been the case; balanced by the cost to bring it back) But since part of the equation is lust, many of us spend the effort without little regard to cost or time. ( emotional )

I also think that BMW's effort to restore and sell cars has helped recently bring emphasis to the BMW classics as a whole. ( Advertising)

In conclusion, all these things are cyclical depending upon many factors, economy, perception, and not the least condition. I don't think it's wise to buy a classic and hope that it funds anyone's retirement unless you've got a barn full. The best I hope for is that I don't loose too much ( risk) and remember the value of pleasure that the car brought to me personally.( unmeasurable reward):-D

Drive 'em. ( We should have a national drive your E9 day! and posting)
 
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I think it is also that perhaps there are fewer examples than we think left that don't need 30k of bodywork alone to make presentable, and this fact is just now beginning to hit the radar screen. The ones that don't need this work are rising in value faster. I've followed all craigslist and ebay auctions for the last year and the majority are in need of significant metalwork.
 
The E9 are very under-valued compared to vintage Porsche, Mercedes, Jag, Healy etc.

I do not understand why but the E9 was a very expensive car when new in the early 1970s ($12,000) and they do not seem to bring the same as other high end cars from the exact same period...

For some reason the majority of E9s being offered for sale are at significantly less then cars of the same cost when new and from the same period like the Porsche 911s, MB 280SL/SE , Jag E-type, even other lower priced cars from the same period like Austin Healys are worth a lot more then the E9s.

In mid 2009 my buddy bought a totally rust free 1973 E9 the car was restored (fresh paint, leather ,mechanicals etc) and he paid only $13,500 (basically the restoration cost). Last Dec. I paid just slightly more for an even better E9 with a sunroof. These are both Calif cars with absolutely no drama or rust issues (ever)

The point being if either of them was a a lowly 911T or MB 280SE coupe they would easily bring double or more what the E9 will bring. I know this is 100% accurate because I sold a 1973 911T coupe for $24,500 in 2007 (a 911S is worth 2-3 times this) and my buddy sold his 1970 280SL for $45,000 last year.

Maybe it is because the E9s are ultra prone to rust, much more so then the other period high end cars that also have rust issues.

I know that there are high priced exceptions like the E9s that Coupeking and other BMW specialists sell but these are often special build to spec cars for a customer. Most of the cars advertised seem to be in the $15,000-$20,000 range and often do not sell...

The reality is that the E9s cost the same and even more if rusty to restore and should have a similar value but they don't...

Every time people see my E9 they ask what year is it and comment how beautiful it is... I just do not understand why they aren't worth a lot more money? I have owned my E9 for just 3 months and it has worked on camera 3 times already (TV, Magazine shoots) and they love it!

Maybe in time they will skyrocket in value!:-D
 
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Take a page from the oil cartels. Create scarcity, maybe an embargo or two. My contribution:

- Verona is not for sale until further notice.
- Create scarcity through our teenage drivers learning stickshift in the coupes.
- Create more scarcity by Blumax recommending that coupes be washed in brine (return old metals and kosher pickles to mother earth).
- Get the Chinese infatuated with the E9 with a photoshoot in the french district of Shangai. May backfire if they start making fake coupes instead of Rolex watches.
 
Value of E-9's

Many comments and some from newcomers to the role of caretakers for those remaining.

Having enjoyed the BLUMAX for 39 years and journeys all around the western parts of North America I have learned a little about care and upkeep especially in the past 20-25 years. I hope the following will not sound as if I'm over the top but may serve to encourage other owners to follow serious care for their E-9's.

Yesterday my efforts to care for my early #16 E-9 were recognized at the Desert Classic Concours when I was placed in the Preservation Class. My plan was to have it on display, but not to be judged there. My odometer had just turned 17,150 miles (actually 417,150) when my son and I were guided to the assigned spot on the fairway at the huge La Quinta Resort facility where it joined some 200 cars that were carefully arranged and on display for judging.

The organizers had insisted that it be judged and not simply displayed. I had no illusions of receiving any award as on one side of BLUMAX was a completely original 1963 Maserati 3500 Coupe with 35,000 miles, on the other side was a 1930 special bodied 40-50 HP RR Silver Cloud that had come from a museum some 4 years earlier, and behind was a truly impressive car, a 1969 MBZ 600 limousine that had 17,000 original miles on the odometer and was a previous winner in two major Concours back east. Like the BLUMAX It too had been re-sprayed.

I had kiddingly commented to the 600 owner that my odometer also showed 17K--however it did require adding a few to that number and he asked "how many" and it did require my honest disclosure. To my surprise, many spectators stopped in admiration and had very positive commentary on its condition at that extreme number of clicks on the odometer. Early on Ms Bimmer Magazine, Jackie Jouret came by accompanied by one of the Bimmer Photogs. I learned there had been a recent article about BLUMAX in Ramp, the German car magazine and was promised a hard copy soon. Many others followed, including one of our own E-9 owners, Jay Mackro. This beautifull day in the desert was filled with people coming by with comments and conversation. I also came to the realization that I was the only BMW on the field at this event.

Then the announcement of winners started and I was alerted to be prepared to drive to the ramp to receive my award--as it turned out--BLUMAX had placed 3rd behind the Maserati and MBZ which had been 1st and 2nd. It was fulfilling to receive the simple reward of recognizing my efforts to take great care of a loyal friend!

My son then chauffered me back to his home in Palm Springs and he and his lady had to go on to a planned social event. Then the real reward began--my drive back to Costa Mesa, about 115 miles away navigating heavy traffic for most of that distance. Approximately 1 hour and 20 minutes later BLUMAX had once again rewarded me with a flawless run back to his barn--a great treat of his willingness even at his advanced miles and consideration for his owners limitations at high speed touring.

The value--priceless!!!
 
blumax said:
Many comments and some from newcomers to the role of caretakers for those remaining.

Having enjoyed the BLUMAX for 39 years and journeys all around the western parts of North America I have learned a little about care and upkeep especially in the past 20-25 years. I hope the following will not sound as if I'm over the top but may serve to encourage other owners to follow serious care for their E-9's.

Yesterday my efforts to care for my early #16 E-9 were recognized at the Desert Classic Concours when I was placed in the Preservation Class. My plan was to have it on display, but not to be judged there. My odometer had just turned 17,150 miles (actually 417,150) when my son and I were guided to the assigned spot on the fairway at the huge La Quinta Resort facility where it joined some 200 cars that were carefully arranged and on display for judging.

The organizers had insisted that it be judged and not simply displayed. I had no illusions of receiving any award as on one side of BLUMAX was a completely original 1963 Maserati 3500 Coupe with 35,000 miles, on the other side was a 1930 special bodied 40-50 HP RR Silver Cloud that had come from a museum some 4 years earlier, and behind was a truly impressive car, a 1969 MBZ 600 limousine that had 17,000 original miles on the odometer and was a previous winner in two major Concours back east. Like the BLUMAX It too had been re-sprayed.

I had kiddingly commented to the 600 owner that my odometer also showed 17K--however it did require adding a few to that number and he asked "how many" and it did require my honest disclosure. To my surprise, many spectators stopped in admiration and had very positive commentary on its condition at that extreme number of clicks on the odometer. Early on Ms Bimmer Magazine, Jackie Jouret came by accompanied by one of the Bimmer Photogs. I learned there had been a recent article about BLUMAX in Ramp, the German car magazine and was promised a hard copy soon. Many others followed, including one of our own E-9 owners, Jay Mackro. This beautifull day in the desert was filled with people coming by with comments and conversation. I also came to the realization that I was the only BMW on the field at this event.

Then the announcement of winners started and I was alerted to be prepared to drive to the ramp to receive my award--as it turned out--BLUMAX had placed 3rd behind the Maserati and MBZ which had been 1st and 2nd. It was fulfilling to receive the simple reward of recognizing my efforts to take great care of a loyal friend!

My son then chauffered me back to his home in Palm Springs and he and his lady had to go on to a planned social event. Then the real reward began--my drive back to Costa Mesa, about 115 miles away navigating heavy traffic for most of that distance. Approximately 1 hour and 20 minutes later BLUMAX had once again rewarded me with a flawless run back to his barn--a great treat of his willingness even at his advanced miles and consideration for his owners limitations at high speed touring.

The value--priceless!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing!!!
 
execmalibu said:
I do not understand why but the E9 was a very expensive car when new in the early 1970s ($12,000) and they do not seem to bring the same as other high end cars from the exact same period...
Click to expand...

If you bought a pristine new CS in 1973 for 12,000 dollars (your figure) .... adjusted for inflation in 2011 dollars that would be (ready?) $59,519 !

Now then, if starting in 1973 you drove it only 100 miles a month, it would have over 45,000 miles! Could you even sell your 38 year old coupe with 45,000 miles for 59 grand?

Lets say you keep your miles driven average below 7000 miles a year, the cut-off point for a second car on most multi-car insurance plans. Over 38 years THAT would be 266,000 miles. Move over BLUEMAX....catchin up here. Now, could you sell THAT car for 59 grand?

If you COULD...it'd be "breaking even" comparing purchase price dollars with today's dollar. Is "breaking even" even "on the rise", really?

The reasons Porsches and the like sell for more is more people have heard about them because more of them were made and so more people want them, more people talk about them, engineering types respect them more, the same basic cars have been raced in current weekend racer series for like four DECADES, and they don't rust like a karmann tin can ;-)

WE still love 'em though, eh BLUEMAX?
 
IMO the amount of people that are interested in owning a collector car are what determines its value. The values of our coupes have actually held up very nicely compared to the Bavaria of the same era. I think what has held the value of our coupes down is they are perceived as being rust buckets by many car enthusiasts --- well at least that’s the way it is here in the Northeast. Another discouraging point for potential new owners is when they research it they will quickly realize that our coupes are quite a bit more expensive to restore than a muscle car of similar value that has numerous suppliers of parts. Many of the more popular muscle cars have what I call a “one stop shopping catalog” for almost every part a person could need to do a restoration on that car. Those types of catalogs give potential buyers courage because they think they know what a restoration is going to cost them. Another point is I think when a potential buyer / collector has 50 K to invest they tend to think older Porsche turbo or Ferrari, basically something with a better horsepower to weight ratio. I bought my coupe to drive :-D & enjoy :-D, once I’m too old and have to sell it I’m going to be pissed off :cry::cry:, NO MATER WHAT AMOUNT IT SELLS FOR. ~ John Buchtenkirch
 
Murray,

The BLUMAX is always a serious contender when entered in a show, but it's neat to know that it can also compete against the big guns whose owners have spent tons of money to earn a bit of prestige. Good show!

Chris
 
blumax said:
Yesterday my efforts to care for my early #16 E-9 were recognized at the Desert Classic Concours when I was placed in the Preservation Class.
Click to expand...

There are days when I myself wish to be placed in the Preservation Class :).
And I wasn't made by Karmann.
 
Murray,

I am so happy for you and BLUMAX!

BIG CHEERS for the award...but even BIGGER CHEERS for your appreciation of life and how you enjoy it. If anyone of us, and hopefully many of us, can lead a life (I know only of your car-life from your posts) that seems to be as rich and rewarding as your example, we to will be blessed!

You live the moment, not looking for the award, but for rewarding experiences; what a great example.

I am humbled,
Sincerely,
Jon
 
Last weekend I took off for my first Porsche event in close to 20 years. Long lost friendships were rekindled and the pursuit for excellance now flows though my vains again, but this time my 3.0 will be along for the ride too. I can not believe what has happened to the value of Porsches lately, I wish I had 10 of them. And the demand so high, even the ones that are not so nice, and the parts too. Supply and Demand! One day the lack of E9 will drive the demand of them to a point where other will pay. In the mean time let enjoy our cars, that what they were meant for.
 
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