Porsche 911 vs BMW e9

RichenFamous

RichenFamous

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So I recently got caught in a time-suck (albeit entertaining) of Petrolicious, Singer, Gunther Werks, etc. videos and thought occurred to me: Why such a disparity in modifying these two cars 911 vs e9? I see at least a 100:1 ratio (maybe greater) of modified 911 videos and articles versus the our e9 getting anything more than Alpina rims and a Petri steering wheel. I am comparing production numbers from 1968-1975 (46,796 [911] vs 30,546 [e9]) and it doesn’t seem like such a huge gap to me to warrant the wide ratio of modified vs stock mentality. There are sooo many more Porsche folks/shops out there that are willing to build to suit than BMW. Almost seems taboo to touch our cars without the blue books in hand.

How about a poll - if you like to modify or remain stock and any comments or thoughts of why this disparity seems exist. I am truly curious.

Cheers!
 
my car is a sympathetic modified car, nothing is stock but the body. but the body is a non-2800cs color (ceylon). the engine is a euro m30 b34 3.5L with megasquirt, but with c-tube intakes and soon to have CSi air box. it has a 5 speed, a 38 petri, a 6er air dam, scheel 400 seats with CSL rear seats. it will soon have rear wheel disc brakes, it has 15" oz alpinas, but might go to bbs rs 16s. everything under the hood has been upgraded to newer technology peripherals. so most people looking at the car see a normal looking e9. the dash + wood is figured etimoe. right now the door cards are vinyl, but they will be leather at some point. i have one of the armrests that a member here made a while back, but its my hope to create a more integrated arm rest with the center console. i will have the alpina gauge cluster on the dash in place of the speaker grille. i need to solve seatbelts ... i should do something with the headliner, preferably black (not at this time). i want to change to coilover RAAB classic suspension ... but again nothing evolutionary.

my approach is sympathetic to the original, but the trained eye will notice the departures ... but nothing like a singer porsche. you have to start doing things like @ccr2002 did with the red seats on Jabberjaw ... that woven leather is next level. seats with more adjustability - lumbar support, bottom that tilts. you need to change the door panels, need to create phone charging and apple car play. but what would you do to the body - perhaps box flares below the belt trim to allow wider tires and more aggresive stance. would you wrap the trunk lid with custom belt trim? perhaps an interesting rear spoiler, not a bat wing. would you do things with carbon fiber? would you upgrade the seat shapes? shave off the fuel door, do something in the trunk lid for fuel? would you change the way the hood works - either open at the front and combine the piece above the grilles with the hood? what would you do with infotainment? what about the engine, a twin cam - twin turbo? don't think we want a flappy paddle gearbox ... but doing something cool with gauges? doing something with a custom dash to improve a/c flow for the car? food for dreaming ... i'm stopping with the top paragraph.
 
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I am caught somewhere between Sympathetic Modified and Full Outlaw. Full Outlaw gets the excitement in the mitochondria a lil bit more!
 
For the coupe, I am really on the fence until I dig into it to find all that is good and bad. I definitely lean toward light, handling, power, and comfort. I have most of the pieces to build it that way (3.5, triple Webers, Getrag 5, LSD, vintage Scheel Mann. Also a full group 5 body kit from Ireland Eng., just not sure about the body kit.
We went on the Shamrock Rally the last two years here in the Sacramento area, and there were a few coupes that really caught my eye. This year @shanon coupe is super cool and another, I forget his name and didn’t I take pictures. We all had lunch together after the rally. His car was low, rare BBS wheels and light. Sounded great and really moved well. His car is the way I’m leaning. Gotta find who it was…
 
In my opinion, that is precisely the main reason why the E9 doesn't attract as much interest as the 911.
There is a lack of spectacular builds on the market—and I’m not talking about dedicated track cars, as there are plenty of those.
I’m talking about builds like this:


I get the impression that any bold E9 or E3 build is treated dismissively by die-hard purists—who make up the majority of the E9 community.

More and more people with money want to drive classics but don't want to deal with issues like oil leaks, electrical gremlins, and so on.
That’s why they spend a fortune on classic Porsches fitted with modern internals, like the products from Singer or Tuthill.

Here’s an example:

This forum features what I consider one of the most spectacular E3 rebuild projects.
The guy who built it is a master of his craft, yet—to my surprise—the thread has so few comments, likes, etc.

E

Thread '1972 Bavaria - Full build and swap'

I've wanted to make a build thread for a looooooong time now as I started taking my car apart about 8 years ago. Full disclosure... the car is basically done already :) This will be a bit of a look back and this isn't the normal build.

Some basics... this is a 1972 Bavaria that spent most of its life in California. I bought it and brought it to Texas about 10 years ago. What I did...

Mechanical
M30B35 swap, megasquirt with wasted spark, the factory 5 speed that came with the engine (1989 735i motor), custom driveshaft, e28 rear end and LSD, individual throttle bodies, high flow pump in...
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No offense, but the "What did you do to your car today?" section generates more excitement and acclaim—like a thread titled "Polished my headlights," which sparks a discussion and gets plenty of likes.

Besides, most of us had posters of Porsches, Ferraris, and Lamborghinis from that era on our walls... I never saw an E9 on a poster.

I’m rooting for the guys at SOC.

I hope their carbon-fiber E9 will once again draw the global automotive community's attention to the model and spark a new boom for the E9...
 
For my sins, I am an original kinda guy, as much as possible.

But I am also all about the passion and absolutely adore what I see enthusiasts do to their 911s and E9s to add a little more comfort, power, or modern drivability. As most who know me know, it's all about that passion, and if you have the wish to keep one of these old cars on the road, then you have my utmost respect and admiration, no matter what it looks like. .

I do agree with Lucas, that we really don't have a plethora of spectacular builds. The list of 911 builders of spectacular builds is extensive; with us, there is a label and prestige level achieved in the 911 market that our E9s just do not garner. From the most basic of 911s to our historic Spa, Nurburgring etc winning E9s, BMWs very often struggle to achieve 1/3rd, sometimes even 1/4 of the price of an equivalent 911. Where I might differ slightly is on the cause and effect, as I believe people do not build these spectacular builds because our market won't pay the price.

If you have the skill, money, and desire to make a Singer version of the E9, would you finance it as a business, understanding the market? If nothing else, you would understand that the market for such a thing is potentially much smaller.

I personally have a car I would love to outlaw massively (Alfa Romeo Montreal) and may do one day, but I know I will be building my own dream, not somebody else's.

So in answer to the original question, I love both, stock, full outlaw, and anything in between; just keep those beauties on the road, and my heart will remain happy.
 
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BMW Pete said:
If you have the skill, money, and desire to make a Singer version of the E9, would you finance it as a business, understanding the market? If nothing else, you would understand that the market for such a thing is potentially much smaller.
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I think there are people who would pay a lot of money for a trouble-free E9 built like a Singer or a Tuthill.
 

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I feel like it mostly comes down to numbers..tons of 911s were/are made, so the fan base and access is massive, which lends to
1: people with varied tastes buying them, and
2: a much easier sense of acceptance in modifying them.
Bigger companies like Singer or the many Porsche reimagine places, have a very large amount of people willing to spend the money on their product. E9/e3 market infiltration is minuscule in comparison..just not enough reason to pursue business opportunity, which translates to fans not seeing the potential and the mod scene being a nonstarter.
Look at the 2002 market. E30 market…etc..Tons of those made and many aftermarket companies building and supporting them..still nowhere near the size of the Porsche crowd, but much bigger than the big 6 community… I like the cool stance e3s I’ve seen, the ls swaps, bagged ones, etc…but it’s just not a common platform, so there’s no development in the aftermarket..just my .02..:-)
 
Lucas said:
I get the impression that any bold E9 or E3 build is treated dismissively by die-hard purists—who make up the majority of the E9 community.
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Wholeheartedly agree! BaT peanut gallery supports this impression. Don’t get me wrong, when there is a car representing in a certain fashion but falls short, the actual experts do speak with authority - and I do appreciate that. Is the little scab picking comments that kill the mood for me. I don’t see the same type of comments in the 911 section.
 
you know most 911s are kept very original as they were always the most desirable. the 911t or the 911e people took more departures with. in reality, Singer does very few cars and they are quite expensive due to all of the work done to them. most of what you find in the air-cooled 911 is upgrades to newer engine / tranny technology and backdating to the 1973 and before look. you see a lot of what we see on the coupe - change of wheels, change of air dam / bumper delete, rear wing and putting a bigger displacement engine in.

with the CSL and the 911s / turbo (930) its a lot more original approach - unless they were modified or crashed early in their life. depending on what they are purchased for, there can be headroom to restore them back to original ... but i have to say, in the past the 911 crowd was more original leaning than the e9 crowd. its not that there were so many 911 made in a given year, its that they were made very similarly for 30 years (1965 - 1994). Porsche always built their cars to make it easy to go racing, BMW built street cars with a good motor and it was always felt there was a need to improve BMW to make them all that they should be.
 
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rsporsche said:
you know most 911s are kept very original as they were always the most desirable. the 911t or the 911e people took more departures with. in reality, Singer does very few cars and they are quite expensive due to all of the work done to them. most of what you find in the air-cooled 911 is upgrades to newer engine / tranny technology and backdating to the 1973 and before look. you see a lot of what we see on the coupe - change of wheels, change of air dam / bumper delete, rear wing and putting a bigger displacement engine in.

with the CSL and the 911s / turbo (930) its a lot more original approach - unless they were modified or crashed early in their life. depending on what they are purchased for, there can be headroom to restore them back to original ... but i have to say, in the past the 911 crowd was more original leaning than the e9 crowd
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That makes sense. I love some original air cooled 911s...I've been so close on several occasions to having one...ugh..now a bit out of reach. They both seem to follow a tasteful mod scenario, I suppose. I guess the e9 platform is just still so foreign to so many people who aren't 'in the know'...everyone knows the 911..
Scott, I know I've asked before, but can't remember, but I assume with your handle, did you have some 911s at one point? any pics?
 
StephenZ said:
Scott, I know I've asked before, but can't remember, but I assume with your handle, did you have some 911s at one point? any pics?
Click to expand...
i had a 2011 - 997 carrera s and i had a 2006 - 987 cayman s before that. the fact is, although RS is a descriptor of Porsche model ... my initials are RSP
 
Mike Berger's build was pretty spectacular. Perhaps @HB Chris or @OCCoupe himself could weigh in as this was ten years ago, but I recall Mike had done a 3.8L engine using an m88b38 crankshaft which he built once and then rebuilt because the first build wasn't good enough. The interior was amazing - I believe Mike used a Rolls Royce leather for the seats, and the paint was flawless. At the reveal of the finished product back in 2016, @Peter Coomaraswamy and I were crawling on the ground admiring the underside of the car. Everywhere you looked, this car was beautiful:

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Some pictures Mike took while fooling around with a new camera:

OCCoupe

Thread 'Learning to use a camera...'

I've never been skilled at taking a picture. I joking would say that I'm better off with crayons and cardboard. I bought a new camera with some advice from a friend. No I did t get Fischer Price camera, my last one broke when I was making mud pies in the sandbox.

This was taken at an old abandoned warehouse in Marina, CA

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And while I'm at it, @Doug Dolan's car is pretty sweet too. Korman built, S38 engine, Alpina suspension & wheels and steering wheel...

Maybe not Singer quality, but a very nice build.

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