Power Steering

Paul T

Paul T

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At the weekend I took the CSL out for a long drive prior to its MOT and next months trip to LeMans.

All is well and just how I remembered except that is for the steering. I seem to think that there is too much movement in the straight ahead position. It doesn’t feel loose and there isn’t any feeling of slackness as such but when driving my hands move maybe 4 inches before there seems to be any action (with hands on the rim of the wheel).

I know that it is possible to tighten the steering box if it is loose but I don’t want to go there and risk over-tightening if what I am experiencing is standard for other cars with power steering.

Any views apart from ditch the power steering altogether?
 
I ditched the power steering in my CSL months ago and have never looked back. Despite significantly higher effort needed when doing three point turns, the feedback and feel of the car with the manual box are outstanding. As an additional bonus, I've shed at least 60 (and maybe more) pounds of sprung weight, right over the front wheels.

I think I've seen W&N listing manual steering boxes on their website, but in RHD only, so if you're in that part of the world, perhaps luck is on your side.
 
How easy was the conversion and what hardware do you need ?

Were you experiencing similar excess movement ?

My CSL is not my daily driver and so ditching the P/S had crossed my mind.

P
 
My power steering is crisp and responsive, and has a lot more feedback than I am used to; it's great, and it is still running on the original pump! Have you chcked the fluid level? The hoses that connect the resevoir, pump, and unit could also be suspect.
 
As an additional bonus, I've shed at least 60 (and maybe more) pounds of sprung weight, right over the front wheels.

If I was to shed 60 pounds there wouldn`t be much left ...lol

The rhd box are available for it some thing daft like £60 in rhd form from W&N but I think the main problem is the steering columb is shorter or longer. I would like to convert to manual steering as well.

Whats on in July in Le Mans ?

marc
 
There's no additional hardware needed (you get to ditch a lot, including the ps pump, the hoses, the ps fluid reservoir, and of course the ps unit itself which must weigh 30 pounds. The only modification that you need to do is to lengthen the lower steering column. I don't recall the exact difference but I believe it's in ETK. It's around 2 inches if memory serves. I had my machinist cut it in half and weld in a piece of stock in the same diameter. Once powdercoated you can't even see the joint. Everything else is straight forward, the manual box bolts in the exact same place as the ps unit.
 
Going to look in to doing mine and also the power steering must use 5-10 bhp. I`m not a lover of power steering, its fine on a daily driver but would much sooner have unassisited.
marc
 
Front Rear Weight Distribution

Anyone know what the "stock" front/rear weight distribution is? TJ - have you checked yours sans battery and power steering?

Wonder how that plays into the spring rates of the various lowering kits used?
 
Malc-I'll buy 5BHP saved, 10 seems a stretch.

Doug-I have not checked weight distribution...........come to think of it, how would you do that? Individual scales for each wheel I suppose?

I can tell you that combined with the battery relo I've got to have removed at least 100 pounds from the front of the car. Sadly a bunch of that go moved to the trunk as my silly subwoofer/amp/Dynamat solution has added that much.

The non ps box is very nice, and despite the fact that the original CS steering was pretty nice, some road feel is still being masked by it. I think I've said it before that it took a bit of time to get used to the lack of "boost" that you feel through the wheel with the power steering. For the first few miles it felt as if I was coasting downhill with the engine off as the steering is not affected at all by engine speed.

As I've said, I love it, but it may not be for everyone. Combined with big tires, three point turns in a driveway take some muscle.
 
Reply to Marc

I am driving down to the Le Mans Classic.

http://www.lemansclassic.com/uk/index.html

This will be my third time and it is a fantastic weekend. This year it looks as if there is only 1 CSL racing but a handful of M1s are also on the card. It's a very relaxed and well organized event that for me out guns the Goodwood Festival now it has become too corporate.

Naturally there are a number of classics in attendance with the vast in-field and car parks shaming many more structured classic car shows.

I'll post pictures in time.

P
 
"Paul T" .......
I know that it is possible to tighten the steering box if it is loose but I don’t want to go there and risk over-tightening if what I am experiencing is standard for other cars with power steering.

Any views apart from ditch the power steering altogether?
Click to expand...

The way to take the "slack" out is to undo the lock nut and tighten the screw then twiddle the steering wheel to see if its better, repeat as required.
However the most slack appears at the straight ahead position so always turn the steering from lock to lock to check for binding. if there is any slacken the screw off a little. You may have to comprimise between no binding and full lock.
You should be able to do this with the front wheels off the ground and the engine NOT running. However be careful not to burn your arms if the exhaust is hot!

HTH
Malc
 
Anyone ever tried to graft an electric steering system, like on the new Mini and the NSX?
Click to expand...

I am actually doing this right now for my Saab T99 Turbo Rally car project.
I am using an EPAS [Electric Power Assisted Steering] system out of a Vauxhall Corsa (GM Product) quite a horrible "chavvy" car IMHO :wink:
THe unit is quite large so you need to make sure there is room for it, plus it means some serious modifications to the steering column.

THe electronics that control it are quite complicated as it is speed sensitive, and there are various sensor inputs However these could be dealt with if retro fitting.
I am building a "simulator" box to allow the assist to be set at a level I like, once the car is built that is. :roll:

The bucket will have the tradition PS system though.

Explanations /pictures etc available as required
Malc
 
I´m about to install a serviced CSL steering box in one of my CSi cars. Going through the forum and having talked to one or two people, it still isn´t clear by how much the lower steering column needs to be lenghtened. I have come across 2 inches, 220mm which is more like 8,75" and perhaps yet another number.
I would be very grateful if someone could dig out the correct figure.
 
Does anybody experienced to put a steering rack i/o the steering box ?

I would appreciate to be shared some info, which car donnor and

hardware to manage the things ...

Thanks
Fred
 
Does anybody experienced to put a steering rack i/o the steering box ?

I would appreciate to be shared some info, which car donnor and

hardware to manage the things ...
Click to expand...

Fred
BMW used racks on the E21 (3-series) and later E34 (5 series) etc. However to go to a rack in an E9 would entail some very serious modifications to the bodywork and suspension to get it to fit and probably isn't worth it.
One of the characteristics of steering boxes is they tend to appear "vague" at the straight ahead position, hence Paul T's orginal point about play in the wheel. Some of this can be eliminated by the correct adjustment of the box.
If you want less turns from lock to lock, like a "quick rack" as used in race and rally cars you might be better off modifying the internals of a standard box.
An alternative is to look for a box out of an E28 M535 which can be made to fit. I drove one for a while and found it was fine, responsive, and not at all vague at straight ahead.
HTH
Malc
 
Hello Malcolm;

Thanks for the info, i didn't know that M535i got better ratios on the
steering box but there is still a problem remaining => the heavy weight of this stuff !!

Do you think a E21 rack would have the same pivot position ?
 
Fred,
I believe an E21 does use the same pivot points, I am assuming you mean the arms on the front struts the only trouble is the rack would have to somehow go through the gearbox!
The problem is that you need to mount the rack high enough to clear the gearbox and back far enough to clear the back of the engine. THis would mean some major surgery in the bulkhead area. Once done you then need to move the arms up the strut to be in roughly the same plane. Finally you would have to fabricate a new steering column assembly and of course make the whole thing rigid and strong enough
The only car I can think of that has a similiar system is the 1990's Audi A6 quattro, sometimes known as Audi 100, the ones with the V6 in them which uses a rack mounted high up with very long steering arms which attach to the upper part of the strut, just below the spring cups..
To be honest I don't think you will end up saving that much weight by the time you have done the required structural modifications, steering racks aren't that light either!!

HTH
Malc
 
Back on topic

Paul T's original post addressed steering vagueness and his desire not to muck with it. Let's look at what might be the causes, and the likely cures.

First is the adjustment of the steering box which needs a 19mm box wrench and screwdriver. Wheels straight ahead, loosen the 19mm locknut and snug up the screw. Without moving the screw any more, snug up the 19mm locknut and test drive. Once the screw is snug in the straight ahead position, do not tighten it further even if there is still looseness in the steering. This adjustment gets a one-wrench difficulty rating, and is something I automatically check upon purchase of any old bimmer.

Next, inspect the condition of the rod ends in the tie rods (two ends on each of two rods) and center track arm (one more). If these are loose someone will need a wrench, pickle fork and hammer, or a separator tool. Repair is by replacement. You'll need the toe-in checked and adjusted if any parts are replaced. A two-wrench job.

At the same time, the ball joint at the outer end of each lower control arm should be checked. Again, repair by replacement, and front end alignment needed. Again, a two-wrench job.

Lastly, looseness may be caused if the steering system is okay but simply out of alignment. Tire wear on the shoulders but not center of the tread indicates need for a visit to the alignment shop. Toe-in adjustment costs from $40 to $80 at most places.

Some have reported wear in rear suspension bushings causes wandering or wierd steering behavior - the alignment shop should be able to assess this.

Let's stay on topic!

As for manual steering, you won't want it in a city car. I had a '69 2500 sedan with manual steering and though I have the strength to move it, parking was a hassle that is undeserving in a car with the class of a CS. Do-able, but not desirable. The coupes came with PS for a reason.

Happy New Year, over and out!
 
Sorry for having polluted the original thread :oops:

I can erase if needed (anyway thank you Malc for the comments)
 
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