Pulsing brakes

Drew Gregg

Well-Known Member
Site Donor
Messages
1,841
Reaction score
1,461
Location
Ft. Lauderdale
I have been driving my car with pulsing brakes at any speed. The steering wheel vibrates back and forth as I step on the brakes. We all know that means warped rotors. But the runout gauge shows only .001" deflection on both rotors. The Bluebook specs show runout max is .0079". The next thing I checked was the wheel bearings after taking the tire and pulling it in the 12 and 6 position. There was play and the castellated nuts on both sides were tightened so there is no play in the vertical and horizontal positions. My BMW expert also inspected all of the steering components and there is no play. The master, clutch, and slave cylinders were all replaced 11K miles ago.
After all of this, the pulsing is still there. The brake pedal is firm,but I'm going to flush and bleed the brake lines next. The front crossed drilled rotors are from W&N,11K miles ago.
Has anyone experienced and solved this problem?
Thanks,
Drew
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2863.jpg
    IMG_2863.jpg
    305 KB · Views: 170
  • IMG_2864.jpg
    IMG_2864.jpg
    348.8 KB · Views: 128
I assume rough pads could also create that. Never had any such issues with my E9.
I had them with the E24 and always caused by bad thrust arm bushings...The indication was that it was not only braking but also shimmy at specific speeds with no braking.
 
Drew: if what "We all know" were true, there would be no problem. But then we would all be wrong. It might have been Performance Brakes who (a fairly long while ago) posted a link to what seemed to me a very authoritative article addressing what actually happens when pads clamp rotors. The gist:

1. There's sliding friction, of course, when the rotor is moving relatively quickly past the brake pads.

2. When you've come to a stop and still have your foot on the brake, there's bonding at the molecular level between pad and disc. When you release the pedal, some of the pad stays stuck to the wheel. This condition can be exacerbated and become depending on driving and braking style.

The accumulation of pad material on the disc results in uneven coefficient of friction in different rotational areas of the disc, and a steering wheel which may transmit that irregularity. The "pulsing" is then (not illogically) interpreted by the driver as a warped disc. Bimmers of a certain age (younger than the E9, E28s and E34s IIRC) were famous for drivers reporting "warped rotors" on the basis of a pulsating pedal. Many a rotor was removed, turned and reinstalled, only to have the problem recur soon after. Essentially, the problem is the manner in which the driver uses the brakes, but I'll extend that it may have to do with pad compound and disc material mechanics.

I think that actually warped rotors (of serviceable thickness, not some of the extraordinarily worn-out rotors I've seen) are pretty unusual and I want to believe that most of us don't drive/brake hard enough to cause rotors to warp, but if you work in a brake shop, well, sick people go to hospitals to die, don't they?

So what's a poor boy to do? Same as has been recommended on this list since decades ago, and nothing to do with a brake lathe. Get the car up to speed, may 60 or 70, and when no one is close behind, make five or six hard stops (don't actually have to come to a full stop, just get 'er down from 60 to 5 mph or so). Get the brakes DA*MN HOT, and the pad will tend to scrape the adhered material off. At the last stop, of course, don't recycle back into step 2 above, and re-deposit pad material on the disc. You may also be informed by this procedure whether your brake fluid is up to par (how much can you smell it?) and whether it should be flushed and replaced. Remember, BMW recommends changing brake fluid every 2 years... who DOES that?

Arde: I never heard of "rough pads" anywhere, but the early (E12 and E28) five series were prone to MASSIVE shimmy even without braking. Ditto my early ('87) E32 735i. The early 6 series inherited the early five series chassis, and the shimmy issues as well. Oh, the bushings I changed on that E32... to no avail what.so.ever. Maybe the problem was that the car had a very hard prior life, and maybe the issue was the metric tires, which I never thought to rotate or get rid of. If you mechanic hasn't heard of the above, he's too young to be working on your car. E28s, E34s and E32s had front lower trailing arm bushing issues aplenty, BTDT, but that's not really a braking problem, more of a design matter when the LCAB has to absorb the full energy of every stop. Small wonder they didn't last longer.
 
Last edited:
When bedding, seek an area that is unlikely to have lots of law enforcement. They may well ticket you for reckless driving if they see you do this on the street.

When I bed brakes, I think part of the process is practicing a panic stop. Use the dead pedal to keep yourself deeply seated into the seat, look just over the hood at the pavement 5 feet in front of your car and think about standing your car on its nose. Hips back, arms braced, head slightly forward, eyes slightly down. Sort of like when you were a kid on a bike and you braked so hard the rear wheel came up off the ground.
 
On Athena that was pulsation was replacing the thrust bushings. Happened on my 1988 M5 also thrust bushings.

With my 2007 X3, I had a sticking caliper which caused the steering wheel to shake violently. It required new flexible lines, rotors, & pads on all 4 wheels.
 
Drew, is that copper grease on the hubs or crud/rust. Unrelated to your issue but hub should be smooth and clean with a tad of copper grease to mate with the wheel rim.

I am voting a hang up of one of the front caliper pucks leading to uneven pressure and asymmetric pad wear.
 
I have turned many brake rotors and have never seen anything other than metal shavings come off the rotors. In addition most brake pad material is black or close to it. Look at brake dust, it’s pretty dark. One would think that any accumulation of brake material on a rotor would appear as a different color; so I have a difficult time grasping the concept of pad material build up on a rotor. In addition, I have never experienced the removal of “pad material build up” by performing a hard brake. I believe driving style, braking system maintenance and region are often the problem when experiencing a wheel wobble at any speed when braking. Especially after the brakes are hot. Hills kill brakes so does driving an automatic with two feet.
 
I have had success in some of my other cars rebedding the brakes in, some pads seem more susceptible to uneven deposition usually related to hard stops - here's an article I dug up when trying to find a fix for what it's worth, YMMV. https://alconkits.com/support/brake-pad-info/110-the-real-truth-about-warped-brake-rotors

Recently I had brakes done on my wife's Mazda that resulted in a pulsing - felt to me like the pad was moving but I didn't say that for fear of sounding stupid when I took it back - turns out the pad did in fact have a manufacturing defect (well, according to the tech anyway) and it was not properly seating causing it to move around under braking.
 
Drew, I think Charlie's comment, "The accumulation of pad material on the disc results in uneven coefficient of friction in different rotational areas of the disc, and a steering wheel which may transmit that irregularity. The "pulsing" is then (not illogically) interpreted by the driver as a warped disc. Bimmers of a certain age (younger than the E9, E28s and E34s IIRC) were famous for drivers reporting "warped rotors" on the basis of a pulsating pedal. Many a rotor was removed, turned and reinstalled, only to have the problem recur soon after. Essentially, the problem is the manner in which the driver uses the brakes, but I'll extend that it may have to do with pad compound and disc material mechanics." has a lot of merit.

Have you pulled the pads to see if there is any glazing on the pad surface? Additionally, have you changed the pads with these rotors? Many times the new pad compound is not compatible with the prior pad material imbedded in the rotor.

Another issue could be the cross-drilled rotors. If these rotors are drilled post casting, you can get a similar pulsing pedal feel as they wear and age. Rotors should be cast with the holes and finished (drilled and machined) afterwards when done properly.

Scott
 
Thanks all for the info. and advice. The person (David) who has corrected most of the work done by the Pebble Beach awards restoration co. that worked on my car when I first got it 4 years ago and I did some test driving Sunday. The steering wheel is articulating the pulsing upon hard braking. When we applied the brakes at a slow speed, you could feel the car pulsing ahead when I was sitting in the passenger seat. David has worked on many of the older BMW's and his suggestion was to remove the pads and sand them perfectly flat. He lent me his 25 lb metal table and 120 grit sandpaper strip with adhesive backing. That will be my first thing to do,along with a brake flush and bleed.Redline RL-600 brake fluid has been in the system and that's what I bought for the flush. The brake pads are EBC.
Chris-- The pads were bedded in years ago correctly.
Rob--The hubs have a red-colored grease in them.
Andrew & Arde--What and where are Thrust (arm) bushings?
Scott & Charlie--The cross-drilled rotors came from W&N and have only seen the EBC pads. The glazing (if present) issue will be addressed when I sand them.

Please keep in mind that I have thousands of miles towing a boat in the past 50 years. I have replaced bearings and pads many times in trucks and trailers.
I also remember the 55MPH shimmy in my 2002 that was corrected using GE Silicon bearing grease and really tightening up the hub nut. That was 40 years ago...
To be continued... Thanks to all again,
Drew
 
If it were me, I would replace the tension strut bushings just to ensure this is not a problem. Most of us can't remember the last time we did this.
 
If it were me, I would replace the tension strut bushings just to ensure this is not a problem. Most of us can't remember the last time we did this.
In the E28 5 series world, the thrust arm/tension strut bushings could be replaced with a milled down 7 series version which was much more robust. Not sure if that's an option here.

My E28 brakes aways worked better after a day of repeated hard braking at the track...
 
If it were me, I would replace the tension strut bushings just to ensure this is not a problem. Most of us can't remember the last time we did this.
Chris--I can remember the last time. The Resto shop told me to buy new control arms which I did from W&N 3 years ago. Those thrust arms were not replaced. so I do remember that. Good suggestion.
 
I just cannot picture the thrust arms being the issue. On the E28 and E24, thrust arms are control arms. Most often the lower ones are the culprit but occasionally the upper ones are too. We have no upper equivalent on the E9.

If you /David replace the thrust bushing, let me know. I have an extra OEM/dealer one from years ago, when I had to buy an extra set because...............I destroyed one trying to replace it. Buy some Bullsnot or equivalent to aid in this.
 
Last April I knew these brakes needed to be repaired so I bought new front calipers, braided steel brake lines, and the mounting hardware for both the front and rear pads from W&N. I also bought the Redline RL600 DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid again for the flush which I had done 3 years ago.
The right ATE caliper had one of the 4 pistons rusted and stuck halfway open. I figured that's where the pulsing at any brake speed was coming from. The pads were not glazed,but I used David's 25-pound metal table and 100 grit sandpaper to give the pads a nice clean surface. Then I replaced the steel hoses already mounted on the car with the new ones. The fitting is SAE 9/16" on both the existing lines and the new W&N lines. Even though I have the Snap-On 9 mm brake line wrench,it was obvious that previous mechanics used whatever they could use to grab the metal brake lines coming through the wheel well. I finally got the right caliper finished. I called David to ask him to come over Sunday to help bleed the brakes and make sure all is correct. I've done this job on the X5 and several other vehicles,but this one is different.
David pointed out that I had put the left caliper on the right side. The outside bleeder should be angled up, not down as in the pic below.
Months ago, I bought the 7.5 mm blue braided brake hose for the fluid reservoir after reading a Forum Post.. Now was the time to install it while the bottle was empty. The Resto shop used the wrong size hose to go to the clutch master. That was corrected with the blue hose.
We got everything put together and started bleeding the brakes. The final line was under the front left and no fluid was going into the caliper. Just my luck that Mr. Murphy used his law to block the line fitting on one of the 6 hoses now installed. We replaced the defective hose with one that had been removed. Who'd thunk to blow through each new hose before installing them?? Here's a pic of the bad hose fitting. W&N said they would send me 25 euros for the hose.
The brakes still felt spongy on a test ride. I had the same thing happen the last time I bled them, and they required a second bleed. The car was up on the jack stands again and the second time the brake pedal pressure was correct. David also adjusted the free play in the pedal. Now the brakes have no pulsing and the car stops with no issues.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2907.jpg
    IMG_2907.jpg
    214 KB · Views: 105
  • IMG_2910.jpg
    IMG_2910.jpg
    262.8 KB · Views: 111
  • IMG_2911.jpg
    IMG_2911.jpg
    296.2 KB · Views: 102
  • IMG_2912(1).jpg
    IMG_2912(1).jpg
    308.1 KB · Views: 108
  • IMG_2913(1).jpg
    IMG_2913(1).jpg
    589.2 KB · Views: 115
  • IMG_2914.jpg
    IMG_2914.jpg
    475.4 KB · Views: 103
  • IMG_2915.jpg
    IMG_2915.jpg
    311.3 KB · Views: 111
  • IMG_2916(1).jpg
    IMG_2916(1).jpg
    281.5 KB · Views: 115
  • IMG_2917(1).jpg
    IMG_2917(1).jpg
    295.8 KB · Views: 105
  • IMG_2918(1).jpg
    IMG_2918(1).jpg
    320.4 KB · Views: 102
  • IMG_2919(1).jpg
    IMG_2919(1).jpg
    263.1 KB · Views: 98
  • IMG_2920.jpg
    IMG_2920.jpg
    297.4 KB · Views: 112
  • IMG_2921(1).jpg
    IMG_2921(1).jpg
    329 KB · Views: 103
  • IMG_2922(1).jpg
    IMG_2922(1).jpg
    331.2 KB · Views: 117
  • IMG_2923(1).jpg
    IMG_2923(1).jpg
    215.4 KB · Views: 101
  • IMG_2925.jpg
    IMG_2925.jpg
    177.6 KB · Views: 111
How about new pads altogether?
Steve--Buying new front pads is not easy if you want a pad that will not get your wheels black in 10 minutes of driving. EBC green pads are the only ones I could find that are lower dust. But they do dust up enough to require thorough cleaning on a regular basis. Every time I have the car up on jack stands, I remove and clean the back of the wheels.
What have E9 owners used with those 20 spoke Alpina's?
 
Back
Top