Rear Windows fully retracted

Rek

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I have noticed some pictures of our cars with the rear windows completely below the level of the bottom sill. Mine won't go that far and there is a little hump of glass on show. Is this something which can be achieved through some changes or was it the result of a change in design on later models?

Its a minor thing but looks quite nice with a flush open look.
 
Pop the rear card off, there's 2 stops that can be adjusted for the end points of the glass, mine was wound all the way out and the top of the glass stuck out about 1 1/2 inches
 
I was also a little bit disappointed when I fist manage to drop rear windows since they don’t go fully down. So much better looking from the side if fully down.
 
7 years later I get around to having a look at this to open the windows fully at the rear. I've rebuilt the mechanism on both sides and adjusted the stop so that the windows should open fully but the motor does not take the window onto the stopper. It seems that the spring is so compressed that it stops the window. There is a big screw inside the spring. Is this an adjuster of some kind? I hesitate to undo it as I have visions of it flying off into the middle distance never to be found again.

Separately, could it be that there is dirt within the spring that is stopping it compressing? I am running sardine tin motors but with relays to ensure the correct voltage. The windows move up and down in a spriitely manner, but just not all the way down.

Any ideas anyone?
 
Any ideas anyone?
Give it another 7 years perhaps?
I did not even know the rear windows can go that low. The spring is supposed to balance the weight of the glass but the problem is that the weight is constant and the spring force is not, I believe. So either a weaker spring or a heavier glass would be needed...
The only practical option is the motor replacement which has been well documented and SFDon recommends.
 
Perhaps BMW wanted to see your kids grow up rather than fall out the rear window....ie I believe this is a safety issue and not a aesthetic one.
 
The spring is supposed to balance the weight of the glass but the problem is that the weight is constant and the spring force is not, I believe.

When Rek refers to the "spring" I believe he means the coil spring built into some of the rubber stops that check the windows' upward and downward movement. Not the hairspring that seems like it is supposed to counter-balance the weight of the window (but as you point out, would apply an uneven force to the window, based on its position).
 
The large spring that is center mounted and helps to lift the rear windows is called a clock spring. They are designed to have an (almost) constant spring force excepted on their active end.
The metal cilinder in the middle indeed has a slot and i can see how one can look at it and thinks it adjusts something but it does not. It holds the spring end firmly in place being pressed into the frame, it can't rotate.
So the clockspring doesn't have any adjustment at all.

I did see clock springs with a lot of muck in them - perhaps this could prevent the clock to wind up as it squashed together, and thus not reach it downwards position ?
 
The large spring that is center mounted and helps to lift the rear windows is called a clock spring. They are designed to have an (almost) constant spring force excepted on their active end.
Interesting. The equation is Torque = k . Angle, per Hooke's law.
and Force = Torque . Arm length.

The arm length is constant, so the force is proportional to the spring displacement angle, which means that Force is higher at the lower window positions.

The only way to keep it somewhat constant is to have a small angle displacement for the entire range. Even then it is natural that the motor is fighting the spring at the very bottom. I guess one could pre-extend the coil so it actually pulls the window at the top and it has less force at the bottom, but I do not recall doing that when I cleaned mine. Getting the last inches at the top is really slow so I am not sure that is wise.
 
Are e28 rear motors the replacement on the rears of our car as well? I have them on the front and they work well. I can only think it is dirt packed into the spring not allowing it to coil together or the motors are not up to snuff.
 
Interesting. The equation is Torque = k . Angle, per Hooke's law.
and Force = Torque . Arm length.

The arm length is constant, so the force is proportional to the spring displacement angle, which means that Force is higher at the lower window positions.

The only way to keep it somewhat constant is to have a small angle displacement for the entire range. Even then it is natural that the motor is fighting the spring at the very bottom. I guess one could pre-extend the coil so it actually pulls the window at the top and it has less force at the bottom, but I do not recall doing that when I cleaned mine. Getting the last inches at the top is really slow so I am not sure that is wise.
This is a classic issue with spring asssited things (think garage doors, car windows, etc.

Assuming that the drag force on the window is constant, then ideally you want some mechanism that changes the mechanical advantage linearly as the window rises. This can be done (and may be one in the some car windows) by using a sliding mechanism where the lever arm the motor is acting on changes length as the window rises, thereby compensating for the change in spring force.

I recall years ago reading an article about the famed "mousetrap" race, where engineers were charged with making a small vehicle from a single mousetrap. They were penalized for any additional outside materials used. Prize went to the vehicle that traveled the farthest down a long hallway Since the only energy source is the mousetrap spring, this presented a serious problem, because the spring only had about 3/4 of a revolution from un-wound to fully wound. Most competitive entries used a "fusee cam" drive mechanism. The Fusee cam is a linear spiral (sort of like a slice of a Nautilus shell). The gearing was very high, so the spring only needed to move 3/14 of a turn while the axles might turn 500 times. The spring would power the cam, but the axle was powered by a string that originated at the inner (small radius) part of the cam, so as the spring unwound the gear ratio changed, thereby applying a near constant torque to the axle over the the full range of the spring. You can also do this with belts that wind up on top of themselves, or conical sprockets and chains thereby changing the drive ratio as the drive end turns

From the window perspective, it seems that having some additional advantage at the bottom would make sense, since this would help the motor overcome the static friction of the window.

Interestingly, the scissor lift mechanism of the window regulator actually has the lowest mechanical advantage at the bottom. This is because the weight of the window is borne almost entirely by the torque on the lever arm. In the example below the pivot is around the quadrant gear, so whatever radius that is relative to the length of the lifting arm is the mechanical advantage (which is very poor at the bottom). As the lifting arm rotates more of the weight of the window is taken by the pivot itself, and while the lever arms have not changed, the change in geometry means it takes less torque on the quadrant to move the window up (and the window moves up less per revolution of the motor). Seems then that the purpose of the spring is to augment the motor at the bottom, effectively making the window seem lighter where the mechanical advantage is lowest, and easing off as the geometry effectively changes the torque requirement on the quadrant.
Screenshot 2025-06-17 at 8.46.08 AM.png
 
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My solution to the Mousetrap Race would be slightly different but much simpler. Prime said mousetrap after adding a small tube of rubber to the top of the moving part of the trap for increased friction. Face it in the correct direction for travel and turn it upside down. Then set the thing off and see it diasappear into the middle distance. Repeat as necessary.

I love all this. Can we start quoting our mechanical engineering credentials like we did on the tariffs thread?
 
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Oooo, I love all this. Can we start quoting our mechanical engineering credentials as well like we did on the tariffs thread?
Sure, But I have none!! Just a lowly EE with freshman mechanics under my belt! Hopefully a real ME can enlighten us!!
 
7 years later I get around to having a look at this to open the windows fully at the rear. I've rebuilt the mechanism on both sides and adjusted the stop so that the windows should open fully but the motor does not take the window onto the stopper. It seems that the spring is so compressed that it stops the window. There is a big screw inside the spring. Is this an adjuster of some kind? I hesitate to undo it as I have visions of it flying off into the middle distance never to be found again.

Separately, could it be that there is dirt within the spring that is stopping it compressing? I am running sardine tin motors but with relays to ensure the correct voltage. The windows move up and down in a spriitely manner, but just not all the way down.

Any ideas anyone?
Not too familiar with the E9 rear windows yet, but I suspect that big screw allows you to unwind the spring a bit, thereby allowing the motor to continue moving the window.
 
This is a classic issue with spring asssited things (think garage doors, car windows, etc.

That is why electric windows are a dumb idea. Am I a cripple that cannot use my arm to open a window?
Manual windows with electric locks should have been the standard.
 
That is why electric windows are a dumb idea. Am I a cripple that cannot use my arm to open a window?
Manual windows with electric locks should have been the standard.
respectfully disagree,
i can not use my arm to open rear windows
plus it is ridiculously cool to power open them in the marina at the yatch club entrance
front windows can be kept manual


p.s. i have not needed new motors, the sardine can are able to move the windows propoerly for me:

 
I have original sardine can motors all the way around. I took out the windows and tracks when I did my interior and dis-assembled the gear drive then cleaned and packed them with fresh grease and did the same for each of the tracks.

The windows all go up at different speeds. The fastest is the right rear, it literally will fly up with a little electric scream, all the others travel at a more leisurely pace. I did bring a fresh power supply and relays to the rear windows.
 
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