Red 73 3.0 CS on BaT

tferrer

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The thing is coupes are unique, they rust and hide it. Anyone approaching a Coupe for sale is better safe than sorry. 400 bucks on a PPI is cheap compared to 5% of your bid price and getting your reputation dinged. The old saying will always be true - buyer beware. I'll let myself out now!
 

JayWltrs

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Good lord, try reading it again, no hoops here, just the HONESTY FROM THE SELLER TO BAT which would have made them place this car in the project category. SIMPLE!! Have you ever heard the words honesty and integrity; well I have, go read my auction, https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-bmw-3-0cs-6/ ,it clearly said PROJECT, and that's why my buyer was satisfied, he had full disclosure from me thru BaT, including the lack of rocker panels left on my car! Just as this car's auction should have!

I posted about this red car to warn others off of it, not to solicit opinions on how to buy at auction. I wont bother sharing info on another E9 on this forum again, I know how to buy a car long distance. Everyone go ahead, post away, slam away, I wont see them. If I cannot use bat again it's no big deal, lots of other outlets out there. Lost my butt on the last car I sold on bat anyway, a Ford powered Healey. I've had better luck on eBay.

The thing is coupes are unique, they rust and hide it. Anyone approaching a Coupe for sale is better safe than sorry. 400 bucks on a PPI is cheap compared to 5% of your bid price and getting your reputation dinged. The old saying will always be true - buyer beware. I'll let myself out now!

Auctions are a fascinating collision of human behavior, law, unwritten rules, ethics, game theory, and, in this instance, car culture and knowledge. I love watching the auctions & how people see so many different things in the same space. Separating the signal from the noise is tough, and some see signal where others see noise. I don't get to decide who is wrong or right, and BaT will do what it will do. I really appreciate Coupeguy coming on to let us know about the car and what happened, and hearing everyone's views. The discussion here is so much more civil than the rest of the world these day (and my day job), I hope nobody goes away.
 

Markos

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I really appreciate Coupeguy coming on to let us know about the car and what happened, and hearing everyone's views. The discussion here is so much more civil than the rest of the world these day (and my day job), I hope nobody goes away.

Business is business. I won’t fault anyone for backing out of a transaction if they have the new information. This is a public discussion forum however, and said decision has been publicly disclosed. There is value in learning what happens in such cases, both as a potential seller, and buyer. I am looking at this objectively despite how it may appear.

I recognize that my response may seem somewhat targeted. I think that it is mostly due to the fact that I have observed two transactions in six months where a seller’s integrity was brought to question. In both times, I feel that the price point of the cars accurately reflected the stated condition. The previous car (transaction) was listed (not *sold, but listed) by a long-time forum member for $20K. It was purchased for an undisclosed amount, trailered about 1,000 miles, and subsequently sold on BaT for $26K. The BaT ad was indeed honest and open about the vehicle condition. This transparency on BaT has been exhibited by nearly all known forum-member-sellers, which speaks volumes.

Perhaps if I had a better understanding for the basis for the warning on the recent BaT *car, I would be less inclined to reply. So far, all I know is that NO PPI was performed by the buyer before or after the sale. The warnings are based solely on the seller not wishing to perform additional activities after a very public ceremony commencement.

How does one put a value on the lost opportunity? The seller likely won’t/can’t relist on BaT. A subsequent listing on CL looks like a flip or a scam, and could easily be ignored. The next buyer in line on the original BaT auction is going to question what transpired.

I’m sorry, but I see this seller operating exactly the same as every other seller on BaT, outside of
some member.

Case in point, in the last three months:

The paint is clearly not original despite the seller’s claims:

The entire inner fenders are covered with seam sealer, despite the seller’s insistence that it’s clean metal and sound deafening underneath:

The floor pans are patched original despite the transparent seller stating that they were all replaced (corrected after call out):

Complete omission of undercarriage detail, including but not limited to rockers:

Other:
 

JayWltrs

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Buyers have ghosted BaT seller/buyer cfujgo 3 times in the last year. He has GFY money, takes losses in good spirits & is a well known good guy in vintage racing.

BaT has to address it, b/c they want detailed descriptions, which create more openings for disputes & walkaways, & the transaction costs & time trying to force a sale aren’t worth it. Also discourages bidding. Last one for cfujgo on the Uracco was a Montreal buyer—not going to chase that from Okla.

I bought my car from BaT seller after RNM & had bid knowing it was the proverbial “box of chocolates” similar to this car. I assumed the seller, as sellers do, was puffing about some things.

I’m jaded, assume sellers lie, & it’s on me unless agreed otherwise. But some folks see the ultimate sale being contingent on inspection & have a bag of different experiences, expectations, etc. Legally that’s not defensible per BaT agreement, but no practical remedy exists for sellers. And while even BaT & sellers have agreed some cars are materially different than described (often innocent) and allow buyers to walk away, unilateral walkaways seem to be a growing trend BaT needs to address.
 
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dang

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From someone who buys cars at auction all day long every day, it gets down to what has already been mentioned here. I know how it works and what to expect from the type of auctions I buy from so if a car shows up and isn't what I thought it should be it's on me. It's on me because I know how the system works, you either accept it or don't buy through those auctions. There's a portion of their inventory that's polluted, and we know it.

BaT and other auction companies that actually care about their reputation have more to lose. They need to filter out the poorly represented cars, but that's only within reason because the buyer has to assume some of the risk.
 

autokunst

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I am amazed at how this thread is expanding into thoughtful, cogent descriptions of auction philosophy. From where it started, I originally saw a car that presented rather well, but that had some question as to what's hidden beneath - pretty common for the e9. I am not at all surprised at the condition, nor the final auction price. Seems like a reasonable deal in today's market. I can't fathom declining the auction results for a car that I didn't go look at (or pay someone to do so). You get what you get - sometimes you make out better than you'd thought, other times you are behind. But with our cars, that should't be a surprise. I personally feel that almost ALL e9s are a project to some extent. It's just the definition of project that is in question. This is really true of any 45 year old car, I'd suggest.
 

tferrer

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Boil all this down and we are back to the original standard. ALWAYS get the car looked at by someone knowledgeable (or yourself if capable) OR assume the risk of buying site unseen. If you want to minimize the risk of buying old cars, this will likely never change.

I'll add, waiting the full 7 days before a BaT auction ends to ask for verification of the condition of the car, is simply being stupid... End of story. BaT should consider retaining lawyers to put some backbone in dealing with dead beat buyers. Just a thought...

Great comments from everyone above. As some of you know I'm not active on this forum very often but I have to say the private messages and help I've received from forum members has been great. At the end of the day these are just cars (very cool ones!) but it's really about the people sharing their passions for these lovely, infuriating objects. Have a great Wednesday guys!
 

CSteve

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Boil all this down and we are back to the original standard. ALWAYS get the car looked at by someone knowledgeable (or yourself if capable) OR assume the risk of buying site unseen. If you want to minimize the risk of buying old cars, this will likely never change.

I'll add, waiting the full 7 days before a BaT auction ends to ask for verification of the condition of the car, is simply being stupid... End of story. BaT should consider retaining lawyers to put some backbone in dealing with dead beat buyers. Just a thought...
"
Boil all this down and we are back to the original standard. ALWAYS get the car looked at by someone knowledgeable (or yourself if capable) OR assume the risk of buying site unseen. If you want to minimize the risk of buying old cars, this will likely never change.

I'll add, waiting the full 7 days before a BaT auction ends to ask for verification of the condition of the car, is simply being stupid... End of story. BaT should consider retaining lawyers to put some backbone in dealing with dead beat buyers. Just a thought...

Great comments from everyone above. As some of you know I'm not active on this forum very often but I have to say the private messages and help I've received from forum members has been great. At the end of the day these are just cars (very cool ones!) but it's really about the people sharing their passions for these lovely, infuriating objects. Have a great Wednesday guys!
Boil all this down and we are back to the original standard. ALWAYS get the car looked at by someone knowledgeable (or yourself if capable) OR assume the risk of buying site unseen. If you want to minimize the risk of buying old cars, this will likely never change.

I'll add, waiting the full 7 days before a BaT auction ends to ask for verification of the condition of the car, is simply being stupid... End of story. BaT should consider retaining lawyers to put some backbone in dealing with dead beat buyers. Just a thought...

Great comments from everyone above. As some of you know I'm not active on this forum very often but I have to say the private messages and help I've received from forum members has been great. At the end of the day these are just cars (very cool ones!) but it's really about the people sharing their passions for these lovely, infuriating objects. Have a great Wednesday guys!
When anyone of us is considering buying a coupe we should repeat 100 times a day, "It's the PPI stupid"
 

rsporsche

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my thought is, if you are selling a coupe on any wide reaching auction is to have a process for having a PPI done. you don't need 5 to 10 people asking / paying to do a PPI. and traveling to go inspect a car at significant time / expense ... when you may not have a chance of being sure you are going to win ... would turn me off to buying on auction. perhaps this is something that BaT could help with.

here's my example, Tire Rack has developed a list of installers for people who buy tires from them ... they will deliver the tires to that location and you the buyer can schedule an appt and go have them installed. they solved an issue they faced. Perhaps BaT could create a series of places to do a good review of a car prior to the posting of an auction. the seller / buyer pay for this as part of their fees. face it, if a seller does this, nobody believes him as its in his best interest to find the inspection that paints their car in the best / most favorable light. this could be an option ... but perhaps a great idea for the auction of older cars, especially with known problems.

While i tend to agree with Rob ... as a person who might be new to coupes and BaT, i might not know how to separate what somebody like Markos has to say versus another BaT poster. The seller has some responsibility here - for his description matching reality. i have conflicted opinions on this - both sides. but i also know a reasonable amount about coupes
 

tferrer

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A
I don't think BaT would want the liability exposure for arranging/endorsing a 3rd party PPI - keep the risk between the buyer and the seller.
Agree - it's not their business. They facilitate the auction process. Taking on the PPI process might imply warranties that could end up being hugely expensive.

It's my experience, very vew buyers do PPI's in this new age. It's amazing to me but there you go. Neither one of the final 2 bidders for my 911 on BaT even contacted me.. And they were both bidding north of 150k. My friend sold his 59 D speedster and not one person contacted him and the car sold for 250k! You can't assume the seller knows (or cares) if his description is accurate hence the part a 3rd party plays in the PPI process. 200-500 bucks is cheap compared to the potential downside...
 

rsporsche

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who said anything about endorsing? and it wouldn't be mandatory ... but if desired, it could be arranged. i was only reacting to comments herein about people suggesting that potential buyers pay for PPI in an auction ... and thinking out loud about possible ways to do this.

i wouldn't think that BaT would have any liability as it is something that would be chosen by the buyer(s) / seller. BaT would just maintain a list of potentials ... that buyers / sellers could select and contract from. in many locations there would be multiple companies ... smaller towns / cities, perhaps none. does anybody think TireRack has any exposure on their list of installers?
 

tferrer

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Well I could see where simply providing a list could get sticky. How did BaT pick the shop(s) ? How do they know they are qualified? The list goes on. People will sue for frigging any reason possible... And even if the suit is worthless, it cost money to defend yourself...

MAYBE BaT could provide a list of marque forums (like this forum) that would allow potential buyers to connect w and find shops that way. Just a thought..

I like the open discussion though. All food for thought...
 

Markos

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They are installation "partners" so as tenuous as it may sound, there may be recourse for a customer...

I'm no lawyer!

Apples and oranges IMO. Shipping $1,000 worth of new tires to an installation partner is a lot different than having a shop assess a $30K to $300K investment. Both have risks, but they are
totally different.

I see the point about having a referral network. The practice is well established within many services.
 

dang

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Copart basically hides behind the fact that "they just sell the cars" and nothing else. They own "some" of them but typically just make their money on the transaction. They do however offer independent brokers and vehicle inspection services that you can find on their website. Completely separate from copart but I don't know the details of how they get listed, contracts, etc.
 
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