Soft Market, you bet.

Arde said:
Store? I assume people invest in gold through an ETF, no need to store ingots.
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Well, OK. Physical gold is cheaper to store than vintage cars, and ETF's are cheaper (and safer, absent a nuclear melt-down) to store than physical gold.

But back to cars: I have observed that many of the BaT auctions that I have followed for their entertainment value have ended with the reserve not met. So either the overall market is getting soft, or sellers have overly-optimistic views of their cars' values. In thinking about it, I suppose those two conditions are different ways of saying the same thing.
 
Interesting that BaT which should know the market inside/out upside/down would allow sellers to set reserves that high.

As for storing gold, I am buying an official US Senate Fleece and wrapping my gold in that.
 
Stevehose said:
Not if your portfolio includes some doomsday physical gold like coins or bars under your bed. Even if you have a physical gold fund (I bough SGOL when gold was $1700) there is the chance that you never get your hands on it when the world goes nuclear.
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Exactly right...guys, with PM's is very simple, "if you can't hold it, you don't own it."

The paper market is very manipulated and if everyone requested physical delivery from the COMEX all at once, there will be a lot of people standing around with no chair, never taking delivery.

Think of a bank run on cash, it can happen.

Paper Futures and Physical are two very different animals...be very careful with the paper market, ETF's etc.
 
@tdgray, so in spite of BaT's being stricter with Reserves cars are still not selling at lower reserves? Does this make the market even softer?

Thoughts?
 
My brother in law just sold a Europa on there.

They were very dictatorial about the reserve or they would not accept the listing. No budging at all. He was selling for his father’s estate so he was good with their suggestion. I thought it should be more. But in the end it just squeaked over the reserve.

Havent made my mind up as to if this is good or bad for the game.
 
Dick Steinkamp said:
Plus you always know exactly what it is worth and you can sell it a lot easier than you can a classic car.
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you just can’t play with gold for very long unless you’re very strange. If I was looking for something to do. I wouldn’t go play with my gold, I just know it’s there.Cheers
 
Two things:
I think the CS group should feel secure that those cars will always be desired. They’re just too beautiful. ( now with the market down I’m even looking at them, I’ve always wanted to own the trifecta of that era, at this point I have two of them, just always daunted by the CS and it’s many….,idiosyncrasies, should we say?)
Secondly, at 66 years old, only my children will have to worry about how much my vintage cars are worth, I’m just going to enjoy them, fiddle with them and insure them.
 
Frederick said:
you just can’t play with gold for very long unless you’re very strange. If I was looking for something to do. I wouldn’t go play with my gold, I just know it’s there.Cheers
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Yep, strange like Sméagol:
 
Is the market 'soft' or has supply just caught up with a past supply shortage?
Over here in Aus there must be 10 E9s on the open market, all been on sale for a while. Go back 5yrs be lucky to be one at a given time. Majority have been recently imported 'restored' by flippers.
Think inflation and decrease in discretionary spending has also flattened the market but my read (Aus anyway) is that market is more flooded in past so sales have fallen off. That said, good cars still sell well off market.
Thoughts?
 
i think its a cyclical thing ... when things go up as fast as coupe values did a few years ago, its only natural that they go through a correction period and find their natural place. this is true with all markets - stock markets / housing markets, etc. some may drop, and then go back up ... some will drop and settle. all this is true until the other factors inflate or deflate the bubble. right now inflation, borrowing rate, other uncertainties all have an affect. i still think the coupe is a good investment for the long haul ... its just NOT a financial investment ... i just don't think you will lose money unless you pay too much to begin with / buy at the wrong time.
 
Frederick said:
Two things:
I think the CS group should feel secure that those cars will always be desired. They’re just too beautiful.
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There will always be value in beautiful things.

The market is certainly correcting. As the numbers presented above regarding the steady yr-over-yr increase in E9 sales show, there will always be more sellers taking advantage of an increasing market.

For me, and likely most here, I somehow relate FMV to justify the time and expense of ownership. In reality, I purchased my vehicle for enjoyment and not investment. Vehicles that are or become too valuable become less enjoyable to drive as we are caught in the value trap.

I suspect the average age of E9 ownership to be somewhere in the low to mid 60s. Younger generations have no nostalgic connection with these vehicles or the naturally aspirated engines that power them. Future value will rely solely on novelty and admiration of the elegance and stance of these vehicles.

Future cost of ownership will be high further capping value. Who will work on these cars in 20 years and good luck finding parts?

This a long winded way of saying, enjoy your car and do t worry about value. Consider ourselves lucky for even owning them.

It’s obvious BaT and others are taking note of current downward trends. They recently increased the fee cap, and also implemented the 48hr post RNM process likely all in an attempt to capture more revenue in a declining market. I won’t be surprised if we start seeing ads. BaT has a huge entertainment value for millions.
 
BrewKaiser said:
As the numbers presented above regarding the steady yr-over-yr increase in E9 sales show, there will always be more sellers taking advantage of an increasing market.
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That may or may not be the case. I would think that much of that increase shown in post #17 is just BaT becoming more and more popular as the go to means of selling/buying a collector car. In the late teens they were listing less than half of today's daily average of 120 cars and only 5- 6 days/week, not 7 like now. In other words, perhaps the same number of e9s are being offered for sale at any given time, but now much more of that number on BaT?
 
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Frederick said:
Two things:
I think the CS group should feel secure that those cars will always be desired. They’re just too beautiful. ( now with the market down I’m even looking at them, I’ve always wanted to own the trifecta of that era, at this point I have two of them, just always daunted by the CS and it’s many….,idiosyncrasies, should we say?)
Secondly, at 66 years old, only my children will have to worry about how much my vintage cars are worth, I’m just going to enjoy them, fiddle with them and insure them.
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I’m curious what you consider the trifecta of this era to be?
 
Dick Steinkamp, I have been blessed to have owned that Trifecta. And I am old enough, 82, to have dived into the market long before these three Classics were either selling at today's prices or I could finally afford them. You may have seen the article I recently wrote for Dirk's BMWCCCA magazine, "The Classic" titled "Steve O'Neil's11 BMWs". Now let me break that number down dollar and year wise.

My first and only new Classic: a 1971 1600 was $3,000. Followed by, in no particular order or chronology, five Bavarias, two were parts cars, and four Coupes, two were parts cars.
Most expensive coupe, a '74 Euro Coupe purchased in 1980 for $10,000. The most expensive Bavaria, my current 72 Bavaria purchased a year ago for $19,000. And some of you may remember Lilli, our '76 2002 that I paid $18,000. for four years ago and sold, sadly, last August for the tii price of $34,500. on BaT.

To quote William Shakespeare, "Timing is everything."
 
To the point of this thread, younger buyers, of which I might be compared to the average e9 group, would most likely have a very different equation that makes up that trifecta. Mine consist of an E9 and E24 and an E26, if I’m to keep in just the 70s range. However, if I consider just coupes in the equation, then I would talk about the E9, E24 and the eight series.
There is so much talk about the value of our cars visa the market. One thing that should always be kept in mind is that the people who grew up with these cars either have them or they don’t. Most of those potential purchasors are of a certain age. The younger crowd is more interested in the E24 or e28 or considerably newer. I had a young 20s something fellow looking at some of my cars. He was more interested in the four-door M3 that I have than any of my classics. Funny enough he called the E36 M3 a classic and it was a more appealing car to him than the E9 or my e26 bastard project. What I’m sort of trying to say is that the value of our cars may actually be dropping as there are fewer people who are interested in them. I can recall when a 57 Chevy was something really cool. Prices in the market reflected that. Nowadays, it seems that you can buy a perfect example, that has been loved and pampered by somebody, For around $25-$30k. At some point relevancy starts to affect market value.
For me, I buy a car because I like the look of it. I don’t plan on making money with any if it because it’s more about rolling sculpture to me. I’m not worried about getting my admission ticket to the museum refunded when I leave, my visit was about the art. $0.02
 
Oldbmwcoupes said:
To the point of this thread, younger buyers, of which I might be compared to the average e9 group, would most likely have a very different equation that makes up that trifecta. Mine consist of an E9 and E24 and an E26, if I’m to keep in just the 70s range. However, if I consider just coupes in the equation, then I would talk about the E9, E24 and the eight series.
There is so much talk about the value of our cars visa the market. One thing that should always be kept in mind is that the people who grew up with these cars either have them or they don’t. Most of those potential purchasors are of a certain age. The younger crowd is more interested in the E24 or e28 or considerably newer. I had a young 20s something fellow looking at some of my cars. He was more interested in the four-door M3 that I have than any of my classics. Funny enough he called the E36 M3 a classic and it was a more appealing car to him than the E9 or my e26 bastard project. What I’m sort of trying to say is that the value of our cars may actually be dropping as there are fewer people who are interested in them. I can recall when a 57 Chevy was something really cool. Prices in the market reflected that. Nowadays, it seems that you can buy a perfect example, that has been loved and pampered by somebody, For around $25-$30k. At some point relevancy starts to affect market value.
For me, I buy a car because I like the look of it. I don’t plan on making money with any if it because it’s more about rolling sculpture to me. I’m not worried about getting my admission ticket to the museum refunded when I leave, my visit was about the art. $0.02
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Yep, has never, ever been about "investment value " for me either. Just "I like that car, I want to have one some day". Messing around with Austin Mini's in the early days, then finally a AH 3000, BJ8 was the epitome for me. But I always lusted after that BMW that no one around me could identify....until I showed up with one. One of the best decisions of my life. Bought it so long ago that the "Peak" Hagerty value of a couple years ago left me gobsmacked, and, I must admit, somewhat afraid to drive it. I thought appreciation of old classic cars was for the Lamborghini Miura or Mercedes Gullwing croud, but I cannot deny that the BMW E9 should not be there too, just did not see that coming. So, values rise and fall. Here, it does not matter much, as it is my 2 sons who must decide what to do with this fine BMW Classic, when it passes to them. Great discussion, Forum Friends! Mike
 
bluecoupe30! said:
Yep, has never, ever been about "investment value " for me either. Just "I like that car, I want to have one some day". Messing around with Austin Mini's in the early days, then finally a AH 3000, BJ8 was the epitome for me. But I always lusted after that BMW that no one around me could identify....until I showed up with one. One of the best decisions of my life. Bought it so long ago that the "Peak" Hagerty value of a couple years ago left me gobsmacked, and, I must admit, somewhat afraid to drive it. I thought appreciation of old classic cars was for the Lamborghini Miura or Mercedes Gullwing croud, but I cannot deny that the BMW E9 should not be there too, just did not see that coming. So, values rise and fall. Here, it does not matter much, as it is my 2 sons who must decide what to do with this fine BMW Classic, when it passes to them. Great discussion, Forum Friends! Mike
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All respondents to this thread make excellent points. Missing here I think is a remarkable aspect about these classic cars. We can work on them! This forum, and other like it,was born of “tinkerers”. You can get your hands dirty, curse up a storm and commiserate with fellow tinkerers. The cars may go up and down in price, but it is the joy of ownership that imbues the value. Whether future generations share this spirit is doubtful. Open the hood of any car made in the last 30 years, and then just shut it. If you are looking to make money, there are many more established methods.
 
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