Starter won't shut off even after new igntion switch
- Thread starter bavbob
- Start date
There are FOUR connections to a starter
Battery + from battery to 3:00
Black wire from ignition switch to 6:00.
Black/red from 12:00 to coil
Ground
Battery + from battery to 3:00
Black wire from ignition switch to 6:00.
Black/red from 12:00 to coil
Ground
jmackro
Well-Known Member
OK, we agree.
It seems like bavbob's ignition switch is energizing the starter solenoid when it is turned to the "run" position. Or that the starter is getting power through the wire that bypasses the ignition resistor and goes to the coil.
we are automatic. I got a bunch of ammo here. Let you guys know the next chapter, likely wed when it stops raining. I again thank you all.
Pulled the Black-Red from the starter and still had power to the starter ( black wire) with the key in the "on" position. I had also pulled the + wires on the coil and still had power.
Starter relay functions on the workbench (12V=click) but does not engage in any key position. Manual application of 12v shuts off power to the black wire to the stater.
Does it make sense that the relay would need to be engaged to cut power to the starter which requires it to be engaged almost continuously? The relay receives input from the "transmission switch" present only in an automatic. Car goes into all gears and dash light indicates appropriate shift location. Transmission switch issue?
Starter relay functions on the workbench (12V=click) but does not engage in any key position. Manual application of 12v shuts off power to the black wire to the stater.
Does it make sense that the relay would need to be engaged to cut power to the starter which requires it to be engaged almost continuously? The relay receives input from the "transmission switch" present only in an automatic. Car goes into all gears and dash light indicates appropriate shift location. Transmission switch issue?
One possibility is that said relay is shorted. It explains the starter engaging.
The relay gets ground actually from the transmission switch and 12V from the ignition (key).
You can bypass the relay and let the car behave as if it were a manual (ie.. no neutral safety switch), at least just to test things.
I will apply a multimeter to the relay and see what's what and report back. Will also pull relay from my automatic e3 and try e9 relay on e3 rather than other way around.
jmackro
Well-Known Member
I'm not seeing how it could be the neutral safety relay. I have a Prospero's Garage schematic for my early e9, and unless the Bavaria is wired differently, the ignition switch and the relay appear to be in series. The ignition switch delivers power to the relay when it is turned to the "start" position, and the relay passes that power on to the starter solenoid if the car is in neutral. So there is an "AND" relationship between the ignition switch and neutral safety relay; not an "OR" relationship.
In other words, if the relay was stuck in the ON position, it would allow the starter to operate when the car was in gear, but only when the ignition switch was turned to the "start" position. On the other hand, if the relay was unplugged, the starter couldn't operate at all, regardless of the position of the ignition switch.
In other words, if the relay was stuck in the ON position, it would allow the starter to operate when the car was in gear, but only when the ignition switch was turned to the "start" position. On the other hand, if the relay was unplugged, the starter couldn't operate at all, regardless of the position of the ignition switch.
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Jay, according to the diagram http://www.e9coupe.com/tech/autobooks/appendix/autobooks_manual_154.htm
relay #30 if shorted would bring +12 from fuse #5 (unfused) to the starter. What this does not explain is why this does not happen with the key off...
relay #30 if shorted would bring +12 from fuse #5 (unfused) to the starter. What this does not explain is why this does not happen with the key off...
Run the black wire direct to starter (no relay)
Still hanging up?
Still hanging up?
jmackro
Well-Known Member
Interesting. The Prospero wiring diagram that I have shows the neutral safety relay wired quite differently. My diagram is for an early e9 - might your's be for the later cars? Or perhaps Prospero just got got that detail wrong; he only shows three connections to the relay, and of course, even a simple SPST relay is a 4 terminal device.
Even if Bavbob's car is wired as per the diagram you posted, if his neutral safety relay was stuck in the "ON" position, the starter would run whenever the battery was connected, regardless of the ignition switch position. Or, as you say "What this does not explain is why this does not happen with the key off". So I still contend that his problem is most likely the ignition switch, with the coil wiring as a second alternative.
First, wish to thank all for their patience on this and with me.
1) In the attached image the 4 prong relay with green/white wires etc is from the bracket on the left. The free relay came from the bracket down on the right, cluster of wires shown joined to this. I was assuming 4 prong was the starter relay, now I am guessing it is the other.
2)Black wire hanging over free relay was joined to the starter at 6 o'clock. I assumed this was the black wire we all spoke of but actually the sheath is black, wire inside is green with white stripe. This wire has power with key in "on" or "start" position. It has no power if I disconnect the clean 4 prong totally or if I manually activate the clean 4 prong with a 12V source across the 2 spades after removing the double female connection in white plastic.
3) Other black wire with blue junction I ran to starter at 6 o'clock. It is joined to a black wire from the removed free relay which gets power only with key in the "start" position....eeehaaa so as presented in this picture, the key and starter work the way they are supposed to. Black wire is smaller gauge than other black wire that went to this relay and smaller than black wire from starter switch.
Both relays click when a hooked to 12V.
Now the only question is, where does this black=sheathed green/white wire go to ? Does it belong with the free relay and the black wire I have hooked to the starter stay the way it is with no relay attachment?
I have stared at the wiring diagram, but its' 95 degrees, I just got a corneal abrasion and had no coffee today. I do plan on loving this car but it's not today. This car came from Washington but I do believe before and not after pot was legalized...otherwise I would cut the original owner a break.
1) In the attached image the 4 prong relay with green/white wires etc is from the bracket on the left. The free relay came from the bracket down on the right, cluster of wires shown joined to this. I was assuming 4 prong was the starter relay, now I am guessing it is the other.
2)Black wire hanging over free relay was joined to the starter at 6 o'clock. I assumed this was the black wire we all spoke of but actually the sheath is black, wire inside is green with white stripe. This wire has power with key in "on" or "start" position. It has no power if I disconnect the clean 4 prong totally or if I manually activate the clean 4 prong with a 12V source across the 2 spades after removing the double female connection in white plastic.
3) Other black wire with blue junction I ran to starter at 6 o'clock. It is joined to a black wire from the removed free relay which gets power only with key in the "start" position....eeehaaa so as presented in this picture, the key and starter work the way they are supposed to. Black wire is smaller gauge than other black wire that went to this relay and smaller than black wire from starter switch.
Both relays click when a hooked to 12V.
Now the only question is, where does this black=sheathed green/white wire go to ? Does it belong with the free relay and the black wire I have hooked to the starter stay the way it is with no relay attachment?
I have stared at the wiring diagram, but its' 95 degrees, I just got a corneal abrasion and had no coffee today. I do plan on loving this car but it's not today. This car came from Washington but I do believe before and not after pot was legalized...otherwise I would cut the original owner a break.
Attachments
I think you already know the problem. Green/white wire never goes to starter.
Pm me with ph. Number and I will walk you through proper connections tomorrow.
Pm me with ph. Number and I will walk you through proper connections tomorrow.
PM sent. Awesome.
So the saga ends thanks to sfdon who walked me through the wiring. Without his input, I would have never figured ts out.
Starter relay power input was only 2 volts, not 12 so the key in the "start" position did nothing. A previous owner switched from Zenith to Weber (I am unfamiliar with Weber) and was using the old "always on" power to the Zenith chokes , to power the starter. Apparently they placed the choke wire to the starter and once started, I guess would pull the wire and let it hang in the breeze. Delivering 12v to power the starter relay allows everything to work the way it should. The 2v to the relay was because of a poor connection of the relay power wire from fuse #5. Probably a one-time scenario never to be repeated but knowledge is knowledge. Again, I have sdon to thank for keeping what little hair I have left.
Starter relay power input was only 2 volts, not 12 so the key in the "start" position did nothing. A previous owner switched from Zenith to Weber (I am unfamiliar with Weber) and was using the old "always on" power to the Zenith chokes , to power the starter. Apparently they placed the choke wire to the starter and once started, I guess would pull the wire and let it hang in the breeze. Delivering 12v to power the starter relay allows everything to work the way it should. The 2v to the relay was because of a poor connection of the relay power wire from fuse #5. Probably a one-time scenario never to be repeated but knowledge is knowledge. Again, I have sdon to thank for keeping what little hair I have left.
jmackro
Well-Known Member
Ha, another "previous owner" story. Glad you got it solved!