Vintage Porsche vs. Coupe ownership

Nachtycoupe

Nachtycoupe

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Since the "Werks Shop '74 CS in Key West" thread starting getting hijacked a bit (I'm just as guilty), I thought I would start this thread since it seems to come up a lot. Some of the discussion points could be stuff like, "why haven't the coupes got their due vs. Porsche?", but also the differences in communities and enthusiasts.

I do notice a big difference in the two owners on the whole. And yes feel free to generalize. I'm going to. But I don't think it is about taking sides, I don't think one is better than the other. I see two very distinctly different vehicles, but a lot of similarities as well. I think this is where it would be a fun launching point for some discussion.

One can argue whether prices going up is good or bad on either side. Are the Porsche's more collectible because they made less of them? Or vice versa? Because now I am confused, I always thought they made way less 1963-1976 (including 63-64 901's) Porsche's than Coupe's. Maybe someone can explain further.

Experiences you've had at events such as the CA Targa where you get a good mix of both Porsche owners and BMW owners. Cars and Coffee events, observations..... But let's make it constructive and maybe take one aspect or another but make it more of a learning experience. What have some of you learned from each other?

I have owned both marks and have learned a ton from both sides of the fence. I am not the typical owner (and still haven't been fortunate enough to own an e9, it's next folks). I am broke all the time and all my disposable income goes to whatever car it is at the time that I am restoring (Ok, and sometimes an occasional beer or two). My Porsche that I only owned for a year was a SWB 68' 911, so I was on the 911sRegistry board for a while. So I did visit the "Dark Side" LOL for a brief period of time.

But I learned a heck of a lot from those guys as I do with all of you. So thank you for all the knowledge thus far....all of you. At the same time I personally notice a huge difference in the owners. Even those that own both marks, they are probably more neutral like me on liking one vs. the other. But I'd like to see how the discussion evolves. Bottom line, we both really love our cars!!!! I'll interject what I have observed or learned along the way..
 
I've never owned a vintage Porsche, but I have a lot of friends that do. From an outsiders perspective, they seem to be very similar to the E9 owners I've met; proud to be stewards to some awesome classic cars.

Everyone seems excited to share, they're all helpful, and everyone is proud of what they own, whether it's a 100 point car, or something that's a little scruffy.

What I have noticed is the big difference between modern and vintage owners within the same brand. I was at a CnC event, and a new M4 owner had to make sure I knew that his exhaust cost more than my Coupe. I politely asked him why he only purchased a base model M car. :mrgreen:
 
Well I started with the 911's owned several and nowadays only have one left that I'm afraid to drive because of it's ever rising value.

As far as I'm concerned the E9 is a much more special car than a 911 simply because it is much more rare. On top of that in direct compare between a 1975 911 SC and a Csi the Porsche will loose everyday.

That being said a E9 is a BMW and a 911 is a Porsche. The first is a top brand the second an iconic brand. They are worlds apart and you can best compare it with the watch business with the E9 being the Tag Heuer and the Porsche the Rolex.

There are lots of nicer and better watches than a Rolex but as an investment you can't go wrong with Rolex. In the end this is what the classic car marked turned in to over the last 3 decades, an investor marked with cars bought to simply sit in storage until their value doubles. As an investement you can never go wrong with the iconic brands and that is the only reason that valuewise the 911 beats the E9.

People with lots of money will always be able to recognise a 911/Rolex and identify with it. 95% of them will need Google to find out what an E9 or Tag Heuer is.:wink:

Just my 2ct.
 
I had a 15-year fling with a series of 356's back in the 80s/90s. They are well-engineered and handcrafted vehicles, simple enough that even I could do most of the work they needed. I routinely bought them for $5K or so, drove them and fixed them, and sold them for $6K or so. Like our E9s, they rusted right before your eyes. Several of those cars would sell for more than $100K today, from what I am seeing.

That is a crazy bubble. It changes the whole demographic of ownership, from enthusiast drivers/tinkerers to investors and pro restoration shops. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, although I find it regrettable for driver owners.

Obviously, I can't predict E9 value futures but we've seen what's happening to CSL and M1 prices. I'd be afraid to drive a CSL on the road today, and I have no use for a trailer queen. Others do and that's fine. I don't want to think that I'm sinking significant bucks into a car that I will never recoup (obligatory coupe reference), but neither am I counting on my car to fund my retirement. I think the nature of our happy little mutual support group will change if/when the bubble expands.

Don
 
Values

Philippe,
Well said. There is always a moment in time where people who appreciate cars, but appreciate investments more, think they can purchase a brand and enjoy being seen with it and talk about owning an example of a prized example, but who really never "get it" and only are in it for the appreciation. These folks help jack prices and values up as rarity is exploited and we get $120,000. examples offered for sale. I personally feel fortunate to own my E9, since 1988 even, will never sell, and enjoy the inspiration and encouragement of this forum for maintaining and improving my '72. Mike
 
Hard to compare Porsche 911 and a E9. two totally diff cars.

I think most people like 911s because of their familiarity with them.

Most people wouldn't know what an E9 would look like or even seen them.

As far as early-mid '70s coupes, E9s do command a high price compared to say...an Alfa GTV 2000 or a Lancia Fulvia.
 
I've been involved with Porsches for over 40 years now and although Ive owned my coupe for 30 years only recently been involved with it more. An enthusiast is an enthusiast. Both have the passion for their mark, both treasure their cars (sometimes know as their baby). Im involved with both for the cars, just so happens the valuation of these cars have increase, I would love my cars no matter what they are worth.
 
dbower said:
I had a 15-year fling with a series of 356's back in the 80s/90s. They are well-engineered and handcrafted vehicles, simple enough that even I could do most of the work they needed. I routinely bought them for $5K or so, drove them and fixed them, and sold them for $6K or so. Like our E9s, they rusted right before your eyes. Several of those cars would sell for more than $100K today, from what I am seeing.

That is a crazy bubble. It changes the whole demographic of ownership, from enthusiast drivers/tinkerers to investors and pro restoration shops. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, although I find it regrettable for driver owners.

Obviously, I can't predict E9 value futures but we've seen what's happening to CSL and M1 prices. I'd be afraid to drive a CSL on the road today, and I have no use for a trailer queen. Others do and that's fine. I don't want to think that I'm sinking significant bucks into a car that I will never recoup (obligatory coupe reference), but neither am I counting on my car to fund my retirement. I think the nature of our happy little mutual support group will change if/when the bubble expands.

Don
Click to expand...

+1
well said !
worried about this trend of rising prices
both cars are very nice, the 356 too,
just a comment, whenever i meet them i feel the 911 guys here are a bit presumptuous when compared to e9 owners, very similar to those guys who wear a rolex here, BTW....
as to watches i would prefer to pair e9s to iwc than to tagheuer, at least that is my choice :razz:, iwc, as e9s, are not so well known as rolex but nonetheless they are fine time machines, just as e9s are fine driving machines...IMHO
 
Porsche has the better brand and not necessarily the better cars. The latter is an argument for somewhere else.

Porsche has always been making purely expensive sports cars whilst BMW has made all sorts of horrific smaller utilitarian cars and a range which covers 3 series to 7 series and some sports cars in between. Because BMW's are reasonably priced, there are likely to a lot more of the near dead cars on the road. Thats not the case with Porsche.

Imagine the bar room scene where the girl asks what car you propose to take her home in.

"A Porsche" gives some assurance that it won't embarrass her in front of her friends. A "BMW" might mean a Z8 right way down to an bubble car. The Porsche wins. It says something about the person.

You are more likely to be a successful hedge fund manager if you drive a Porsche whereas the a BMW can be driven by the hedge fund manager right down to the guy who cleans his office.

Then there is the racing heritage. BMW have enjoyed some success but where it matters, in dominating Le Mans and similar, the Porsche's have made the most of the racing heritage in their brand.

So, lament away at the values of Porsche, but they will always be worth more, because they deserve it because they have the purer brand which they have worked at.
 
Rek said:
So, lament away at the values of Porsche, but they will always be worth more, because they deserve it because they have the purer brand which they have worked at.
Click to expand...


I would say "HAD" the purer brand, with all their diesel SUV's and cheaper models (remember 924/944), they're becoming more and more mainstream as well. Your girl would have been very disappointed when the Porsche keys led her to a weathered down 924.

The only true Porsche, the 911, is only a fraction of what they manufacture on a yearly base (200.000 cars nowadays). So I'm with you as far as the 911 brand is concerned.
 
Philippe db said:
As far as I'm concerned the E9 is a much more special car than a 911 simply because it is much more rare. On top of that in direct compare between a 1975 911 SC and a Csi the Porsche will loose everyday.

That being said a E9 is a BMW and a 911 is a Porsche. The first is a top brand the second an iconic brand. They are worlds apart and you can best compare it with the watch business with the E9 being the Tag Heuer and the Porsche the Rolex.

There are lots of nicer and better watches than a Rolex but as an investment you can't go wrong with Rolex. In the end this is what the classic car marked turned in to over the last 3 decades, an investor marked with cars bought to simply sit in storage until their value doubles. As an investement you can never go wrong with the iconic brands and that is the only reason that valuewise the 911 beats the E9.

People with lots of money will always be able to recognise a 911/Rolex and identify with it. 95% of them will need Google to find out what an E9 or Tag Heuer is.:wink:

Just my 2ct.
Click to expand...

Really like your analogy. Agree that people recognize the brand value of Porsche in comparison with BMW and that may be why 911's of similar vintage are worth more. Not to disparage 911's, but a 911 from 1970 looks just like one from the late 80s to me, albeit bigger. Timeless design no doubt, but the E9 is a one off in my book. The six series that replaced it looked great but didn't equal it. Hands down, I think our coupes look better than 911's and have a 'what is that/wow' factor you just won't get with a 911; everyone can recognize a 911 of any vintage from a mile away. I believe that it's for this reason that E9s may have a higher ceiling for value. Might never happen, but either way I'll keep on coupin'.
 
So, the one main common issue I found with both the vintage 911's and the coupes are that they both share the dreaded rust issues. Seems worse than most other cars the same age. Maybe it is just because I don't look at many other cars the same age, but even say a Bavaria vs. a coupe or a 2002 vs. a coupe, same general weather conditions, the coupes seem to be more of a rust magnet so to speak. Just the way they are designed. Vintage Porsche's as we know suffer the same fate. Well, my BIG mistake was thinking that the same rust spots would be the same for the Porsche. That was not the case. There are other hidden areas that I never bothered to check. I tried getting an aficionado to come check it out with me but it never worked out. And, unfortunately the guy I bought it from was not the most up front about it like I am when selling a car. Hard lesson learned. And had I got on the Early911sRegistry board before purchasing the car, like people are smart enough to do on here, it can save one from making a huge mistake.

So, much of the conversation on the Porsche board seems to circle back to: Find the driest, straight car you can find as a base, the more original the better (which attitude differs here, 3.5 motor/5-speed swap better if not, same, but no downgrade). Sometimes the Porsche's are even worth more unrestored than a full restoration.

I was told later that a lot of the Porsche's back in the day were brought over on uncovered barges from Germany, exposed to the salt air for quite some time with no undercoating and rusting out even before they arrived at port here. Not sure if old wives tale but from the looks of a lot of them, I believe it. LOL. I wonder if the same was true for the coupes etc.

But a big difference, and this is strictly my opinion and I admit have spent much more time in a vintage BMW than a vintage Porsche. But the BMW's just seem like they are way sturdier, better built so to speak in terms of just feeling "solid." Safer if one was to heaven forbid get in a head on (Porsche motor in rear) or any kind of front end collision. The Porsche, no matter how much I love them, feel unsafe. Like a glorified VW. I never felt safe driving it. But because of that they are light and fast I guess. Structurally the coupe seems much better built. Kind of like how I felt in a Datsun 510 vs. a BMW 2002. Similar design and size, but when you shut a door on the Datsun vs. 2002, the 2002 felt much more "solid." But the Datsun's were light and fast. I guess everything is a give and take. The seats in the stock Porsche's seemed cheaper/flimsier compared to BMW coupes but they had some great designs with the fabric such as the herringbone and some really cool plaid designs and colors.

Granted I didn't drive the Porsche long enough to get a feel for the rear engine config. and the whole torsion bar vs. coilovers. I never really got a good impression of what I liked better, not being use to torsion bars, I can't make a fair comparison.

I'll stop here but I bring this up because I too am amazed that the coupes have not kept in "lock and step" with the Porsche's. There are many other comparisons such as the cool bright colors both used. But to lag the Porsche market is puzzling at times. However for me as a future buyer, I applaud it. When NOS tail lights go for $5k and tool kits for $7k, all a sudden it's not that much fun if your not a gazzzilionaire to own the cars you love.

Again, these are just my personal impressions and I love that there are so many passionate people in both communities, many of us in both at the same time. But I think the Coupe's are the TAG's and Porsche's the Rolex in terms of engineering back then. The Porsche's were still very simple VW motors essentially. And the rest of the car just never felt quite as well built. And we didn't even talk about the back seats......no comparison. So as soon as this wonderful "casino" ehmmmm "market" comes crashing back down.....I'll be on the lookout for a coupe...but that is still a little ways away, still lots to do on the Bav.
 
I am lucky enough to have both, a '68 911S and a '73 3.0 coupe, and I disagree re the quality of the build comments. Early Porsche 911s were designed with an approach that eliminated everything unnecessary, to keep the cars light, and competitive. If you sit inside a 911, you can't really see anything of the car except for the two raised headlights... All you see is what's around you, but not the hood, or trunk. It's simplicity and a focus on driving. The coupes are true grand tourers with comforts like ashtrays, wood trim, electric Windows, leather, etc.

I don't think the enthusiasts are really that different between the two. Maybe the early 911 following is larger, as the 911 is still being made, and continued consistent endurance racing success. A modern 6series driver likely wouldn't even know that an e9 is the predecessor to his/her car.

Scott
 
But what if you are an Omega man?

Guess I'd have to have a lunar orbiter or Db5. ..Iso grifo or Rivolta, Bizzarinni....

911 or E9? Apple or orange?. Both tasty fruits.

;-)
 
Shannon well put, I like that....Omega man.... I guess all I was getting at was it's hard for me to justify the Vintage 911's being hundreds of thousands of dollars more well built/engineered than the coupes. I mean literally, the cars are consistently going for that much more in similar shape. Jump over to the other board and look at the cars for sale once in a while and read the comments. Some have some great back stories but still......It's crazy to me.

And I'm a huge fan of both so I don't want anyone to get me wrong. It's just interesting to look at it in that light. So it looks like 30.5K-30.7K+/- e9's built between 65'-75' correct? Does anyone have the Porsche 911 numbers same time frame? Because this whole time I always thought it was because there were far fewer Porsche's built, hence the higher prices. So that is why I was very puzzled to hear it was the other way around. Maybe broken out "S","E", and "T". Couldn't find on the Early911SReg, I'm sure it's there somewhere and Wiki wasn't helpful. There is a long list of the known engine#'s and chassis #'s but I couldn't find a nice grouped total like the E9 Reg. has. Does anyone have a link to that? I'd love to check it out, S's vs. CSL's etc. Thanks for all the comments and help, very interesting. I agree both groups very knowledgeable/passionate people, it's great.
 
Racing history

I think it comes down to this.
The 911 has absolutely dominated sports car fields for 50 years. The e9 was just a blip on the screen in the mid 70s.

I own a CSL, and I wouldn't trade it for a 911, because for high speed grand touring it is the bomb. I have no incentive to denigrate the brand, but the racing history is simply not the same.

Compare a Maserati Ghibli to the Daytona, and the Daytona will always be worth 2x because of the racing provenance of Ferrari in sports cars and F1.

I have an Italian friend who has probably driven every high end vintage race car (as a hired hand), every Ferrari from 250MM, Mondial 500, to 250LM, to TR to GTO, etc. And he says they all pale in comparison to the Jaguar D type. The D type is his all time favorite car. Heresy for an Italian to admit! The Ferraris drive like trucks in comparison to the Jag, he says. Yet the Jag trades for discount compared with the TR, GTO, or 250LM. Jag has racing history, but not much in the last few decades, and nothing compared with Ferrari and Porsche over the years.

Scott
 
Found this online for 911 production totals.
 

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no comparision

all this nosence about nothing
they are two completeely different cars no compoparision can be made one is a racer tourer ther other is a racer
period
 
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