Ways to support market values of our Coupes

I think it's obvious ...

Some of you will diss me (hi Dan), but I think the answer is obvious.
The E9 is not a seminal motorcar in comparison to cars which sold in much larger numbers:

XK120: first affordable post-war supercar
356: First popular German sports car that was accessible to the common man
911: established the rear-engined sports car for the nearly-mass-market,
BMW 2002: established the sports "sedan" market in the USA (despite the fact that Alfa was selling an Italian equivalent in the USA a decade earlier)
Corvette: America's sports car
XKE: styling icon and first practical European GT car that upper middle class American's could afford
MB Pagoda's: First practical Merc SL that still defines the SL product DNA today
Mustang: First Pony car
E30 M3: race-bred homologation specials almost always appreciate well (911RS, E9 CSL, M1, etc.)

What can you say about the E9 in comparison to these examples? Sure it's a great car, but it's just not historically that important. Many of us will sink irrational amounts of money into restoring them (myself included). But they'll always take a back seat to more important sports cars of our generation. I'm sure the 240z is a similar case.
 
One thing we don't seem to do is to track sale prices. I subscribe to Cavallino and they make an obsessive effort to keep track of prices, even on the low end models. The recent CSL auctions, jabberjaw, Cary's B2S, etc. These sales should all be documented, along with the eBay basket cases to show values. I'm tired of seeing coupe values listed in magazines as $20k. That's simply not accurate. If they had a resource to use that had actual sale prices we were tracking it would raise published values.

/rant
 
bfeng said:
BMW 2002: established the sports "sedan" market in the USA (despite the fact that Alfa was selling an Italian equivalent in the USA a decade earlier)
.
Click to expand...

John, I beg to differ on this point...slightly. While, I will not argue that the 2002 was not an important model, it was not the direction BMW took in terms of styling or driving experience. The 02 saved BMW from collapse because it was relatively affordable, decent on gas, and offered a completely different driving experience compared to most American cars of the time. But, I think BMW moved in the direction of higher-priced, luxurious grand touring cars which offered better margins than lower priced models. While BMW escaped financial ruin because of the 2002, the 2002 was not necessarily what BMW thought of itself as a manufacturer. Heck, when the going was tough BMW made Isettas but they also made the 507 at the same time. So, yes the Isetta and 2002 were important to keeping the company afloat and in the case of the 02 was important to introducing the American public to BMW ownership, but the e9 like the 507 IMHO better represents BMWs design/driving philosophy.
 
and now for another take on it

1st values.

the first reason to start tracking sales, appraisals and comparable condition is for insurance purposes - loss, theft or accident. we went thru that a lot on the e30 m3 special interest group. this is an important task that we ought to create a members only section on either this forum or e9driven.com - and start documenting. this ain't a 1 person job ... any volunteers?

we can debate which bmw or which car all day long + all end up with different lists. but historically one of the first places to start is racing pedigree and heritage. there won't be any buick regals on this list. but from BMW, a few jump forward - the 328, the CSL, the e30 M3 ... i would have put the M1 on that list if the class structure changes hadn't orphaned it.

then you can get to shear beauty - okay, we'll start with the e9 coupe, add in the 507, the z8, and the M1.

then the cult following - the 2002, tii and turbo ... the z3 m coupe, the e30 m3.

the thing that you find true to all of these (in reasonable shape), is slowly rising values.

Scarcity or rarity is a factor in extreme value, but notoriety is huge. beauty is also a significant factor ... but doesn't trump notoriety. cult following is a fad that will rise + fall.

so lets talk about notorious. the Shelby Cobra, the MB Gullwing, the jag xk-120, the jag D type, numerous (older) ferraris.

beauty can be a regional thing -
(american) - some of the cars from the 20's + 30's were gorgeous, early vettes, certain muscle cars
(british) - early Aston Martins, jag xke, austin healey 3000,
(italian) - early ferrari, early maserati, early alfa romeo, early bugatti
(french) - delage, delahaye
(german) - porsche speedster, early 911s + 930, MB 300sl, 190sl + 280sl, bmw e9 + 507
... you get the picture.

cult cars, afordable performance or style - the 240z, the early mazda rx-7 ... they've kind of wained. the 2002 is riding a new wave. the square back scion (not my favorite).

cars that fit into multiple categories do the best. early quantity allows people to know about a car (early 911). karmann bodies assures future scarcity ... so do italian bertone bodies (remember, karmann licensed rust to the italians).

my .02 cents
 
E-9's are not being ignored by some Pros--

Over the past 5 years I've been approached by three internationally known, professionally accomplished auto designers at different venues--each have major car designs to their credit, including Porsche, Opel. Mazda and others. In each instance, their independent observations made at different times regarding the E-9 go something like this: it is a timeless design, perfectly proportioned and remains a very drivable classic that's under-valued--certainly echos what I've been saying for 30 years or so.

As we are lamenting the lag in recognition of our E-9's as a collectible, the 356 Porsche has now climbed to 6 figures for a fine example--at least here in our local market.

I'll go along with what our Pros have observed--and I'll add that a fine E-9 is twice the car at 1/3 the price of the 356!! Perhaps not as cute but much greater content overall.

Get yours as tasteful and cosmetically nice as you can, in sound roadable condition and keep it that way--I'm confident that if you do you will eventually enjoy its appreciation.
 
Walter,

With all due respect, it matters not what BMW thought of themselves, only that the 2002 established a segment and BMW as the segment leader. Without that base of sales and revenue, they would not have had the deep pockets to become what they are today. The 2002 was the sole model which sold in huge numbers globally (for BMW at the time), giving them the money to invest in improving their entire line. The 2002 eventually became the 3-series, which has been BMW's bread and butter continuously for the past 4 decades and which still is most responsible for enhancing BMW's brand value.

I'll repeat. It matters not what BMW thought of themselves (which may have been as a niche player building 507's for wealthy playboys), but what the public thought of them and what the 2002 did for their image in the minds of millions of US/European customers.

John

P.S. I'm no BMW historian, but I worked with BMW for some time, and was on first name basis with the head of research during that time. Sure, the fun stuff was new technology for the 7-series and M-cars, but everyone knew success was when it trickled down to the 3-series.

P.P.S. Don't complain too loudly about E9 values. Not only are they going up, but consider the plight of Ferarri owners of the Montezemolo era. Other than a few rarities, all those 430's and 612's etc. will never be worth more than their original retail ... and those are some damn fine sports cars!
 
rsporsche said:
1st values.

the first reason to start tracking sales, appraisals and comparable condition is for insurance purposes - loss, theft or accident. we went thru that a lot on the e30 m3 special interest group. this is an important task that we ought to create a members only section on either this forum or e9driven.com - and start documenting. this ain't a 1 person job ... any volunteers?
Click to expand...

Scott, Couldn't we do this as a wiki ? Condition, inside knowledge on the history, all things that might benefit form multiple inputs to keep it accurate.
 
David,

i suppose it could be a wiki ... but for insurance purposes, it has to be verifiable ... and i don't think anybody here wants information on their fully restored CS or CSI displayed for somebody to track / target. you can double or triple that caution for a CSL owner. so a lot of base information - just for value could be done in that manner - with year sold, condition, pictures + value.

but a wiki could do a couple of things - get current values out there, show the rise in value over the past 10 years ... as well as the diminishing supply. and also introduce more people to the beauty of the e9 coupe ... as well as link this forum to it.

all that being said, i don't know much about the structure of wiki and what it would take to do it.
 
I would volunteer to maintain a database of coupe selling prices as I am recently retired. I know nothing about wikis but something simple would be doable. We would need to establish the data that we would like to collect as well. A summary only could be uploaded to e9driven periodically. The hard part is getting the actual selling price, eBay is easy, but who knows what dealers get or Craigslist among others. It would help to share our own purchase prices, not publicly of course, and some kind of condition rating is also needed. Any thoughts?

Chris
 
i have owned many older bmw's ('91 and older) and my '72 e9 is easily the prettiest of them all.

i think one thing that holds the car back is its too sedate, too quiet, too reliable, too vanilla modern feeling. dont get me wrong, i can climb in my 72 and drive across country today and 1. know i will make it 2. keep up with all traffic conditions and 3. be totally comfortable (except lack of a/c) doing it. boring!

kevin
 
Values

The 2011 Sports Car Market magazine price handbook came out a few weeks ago. I don't have it in front of me, but I believe it showed for a #2 tier @ $10-$15k.
 
Calll me a heritic but I am happy that our cars have not appreciated the way some others have. I fell in love with the first coupe I saw and years later, because they did not appreciate like Prancing Horses, I could afford one on a modest salary.

The dozen or so coupe owners I know personally, did NOT buy their cars as an investment. And some of them stretched to make the purchase.

Yes, my coupe is insured for three times what I paid for it over 20 years ago. But that's so I can replace it with one like it in the event I wreck it.

It sound like some people would like to manipulate the market. The next thing you know there will be insider trading and short selling.

Steve
 
bfeng said:
The 2002 eventually became the 3-series, which has been BMW's bread and butter continuously for the past 4 decades and which still is most responsible for enhancing BMW's brand value...

I'll repeat. It matters not what BMW thought of themselves (which may have been as a niche player building 507's for wealthy playboys), but what the public thought of them and what the 2002 did for their image in the minds of millions of US/European customers.
Click to expand...

Dollar wise, yes; the 3 series is what makes BMW profitable. Most manufacturers have to have that model that gets you into the dealership because it is "within reach." But...the 3 series has evolved to such an extent that I don't think it shares any DNA with the 2002. It's big, it's soft, and it's expensive. I think of it more as a junior exec car than an enthusiat's car. It morphed to such an extent that the 1 series was created as an entry level BMW. I haven't driven one, so I can't attest to the performance but with a base model, moderately equipped starting at the same price as a base 3 series it doesn't seem to have the same spirit as the 2002. When I think of BMWs today, I think of luxury, design, technology, exclusivity (relative to Hondas and Fords at least), and then performance; not the other way around like with a 2002.
 
Might as well throw my .02 cents in....

Sure BMW's strategy to get people in the door seems to have worked to provide volume in the market, but the e9 represents a unique classic that bears more resemblance to other collectibles valued at far more than our coupes.

It just so happens that those other marques didn't try to sell the numbers that BMW embarked upon, and so despite the timeless lines of the e9....BMW in general hasn't helped to value our coupes.

Frankly, I don't care that the 3 series has been used by BMW to get people in the door,
simply because that genie is already out of the bottle...but mostly because I own an e9 right now.

As such, my vote is to contribute to the true value of our cars by discussing honestly and openly about the cost to restore and maintain a well sorted e9. As other have surely experienced, I've had a number of purchase inquiries for my coupe. Typically, many would be buyers are unnecessarily misinformed about the circumstances of cost involved with acquiring a coupe. As such, I think owners and buyers will be well served by accurate valuation.
 
66toaster said:
The 2011 Sports Car Market magazine price handbook came out a few weeks ago. I don't have it in front of me, but I believe it showed for a #2 tier @ $10-$15k.
Click to expand...

From the 2011 mid year SCM update
3.0 CSL 26.3k - 42k
3.0 CSL Batmobile $157k - $210k
3.0 CS $9.3k - $16.5k

These prices don't seem to get updated very often. The CSL batmobile range was raised about 6 months after 3 cars sold for $100k plus including one featured in SCM close to a year ago. There aren't many coupes at auction so the prices the track don't change much. It's interesting that they don't even make the distinction between a CS and a CSI
 
The selling prices as reported--

fail to take into account that many/most of the quality E-9's are sold by and between private parties.

That has certainly been the case with all the E-9's I have handled and doubt that others sold through CoupeKing, La Jolla Independent, or others closely associated with high quality examples are ever reflected in the traditionally sourced and published prices--e.g. through SCM, Hemmings, flea-bay, various auctions, etc.

As a result the public--and many members of this board--do not really know the going selling prices for many--perhaps the majority--of the high quality, really good ones that are transacted privately. My activities have never been disclosed to those referenced publications and will remain a strictly private matter between self and buyer.
 
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