Weber DCOE 40 has F41 emulsion tubes???

andyleonard

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Can anyone find a doc that ranks the DCOE emulsion tubes from lean to rich? These carbs are off a 4 liter Ferrari from the '70s and I *cannot* get the tip-in and low end to lean out, regardless of AFR, idle settings and stupid lean idle jets. I'm starting to suspect I have wild card emulsion tubes. I se them listed for sale and they're mentioned on the Alfa forums as "smog" carb parts. Anyone?
 

Stevehose

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There is not a clear lean-to-rich logic regarding emulsion tubes, they were designed for various engines and running conditions. F41's are emissions carb tubes, what model DCOE's do you have? What size idle jets, main jets, air correctors, and chokes are you using? Post a pic if you can. A 70's 12 cyl ferrari likely wouldn't be using DCOE 138/139's.
 
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andyleonard

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There is not a clear lean-to-rich logic regarding emulsion tubes, they were designed for various engines and running conditions. F41's are emissions carb tubes, what model DCOE's do you have? What size idle jets, main jets, air correctors, and chokes are you using? Post a pic if you can. A 70's 12 cyl ferrari likely wouldn't be using DCOE 138/139's.
Carbs are Model 111 off a 72 GTC4. I could only get 3 of them to fit the E9. Six was too many.
Float level is slightly low, pressure at 2#s. Regular gas/stock motor. No air filters on at the moment.
Hard/full throttle is 12.8 to 13.5
Idle I can set anywhere from 9-13 with screws but above 10 it stumbles on tip-in.
At very small throttle openings/gentle acceleration (it's automatic) must be under 10.5 for actual drivability.
Stumble for a minute when cold (55F) seems right.

I can start the jet dance but without knowing what the tubes are, I haven't.
Thoughts most welcome.

Chokes 30
Idle 45 F23
Mains 140
Tube F41
Air 180
Pump 35
 

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Stevehose

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Ahh those are 38DCOE so I will do some research and check my notes and get back to you
 

Stevehose

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Initial thoughts are you have a engine displacement/cylinder mismatch. 6 carbs for 4 liters on the Ferrari and 3 for 3 liters here. So the chokes at 30 are too small becuase you need to pass more air for each cylinder now. Small chokes will pull the main jets in sooner due to their higher venturi effect. They will also reduce top end response but being an automatic this may not be as much of a concern as early/rich tip in. The idle jets are too small, again it's because each carb is working less on the 12 cylinder displacement. The inner bore size on an F11 jet is 1.5mm, M30's typically use an F8 or F9 jet which has a 2.0mm bore, so this jet is not big enough. I think the F23 is an emmissions carb jet. I suspect that you are using the idle mix screw a lot to compensate for all of this. And yes, I do believe the emulsion tubes are incorrect as you suspect.

Couple other things I need to know:
-what size your Aux venturi is - the piece that sits in front of and holds in the chokes - is it 4.5 or???
-remove the progression hole cover and shine a flashlight into the throat and take a picture of the little progression holes from above.

After confirming the above, I'd consider starting with this setup:

A set of drill jets from Pierce or Carbparts.eu, this will save you time and a lot of money
34mm or 32mm chokes (I have a set of 34mm chokes that I can send you to try - this stuff gets expensive)
45 F8 idle jets (can be drilled out to richen the fuel bore or lean out the air bleed)
120 main jets (also can be enlarged)
170 air correctors (also can be enlarged or just start with your 180's - not much difference)
F11 emulsion tubes, I may have a set of these I don't need anymore that you can have-I will check tonight
35 accel pump jet with a discharge valve TBD

The idea here is that you need to convert the internals set up for 6 carbs for 4 liters to 3 for 3 liters. I believe this is the main reason it's not running properly. And those Ferraris ran rich for max power.
 

andyleonard

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Initial thoughts are you have a engine displacement/cylinder mismatch. 6 carbs for 4 liters on the Ferrari and 3 for 3 liters here. So the chokes at 30 are too small becuase you need to pass more air for each cylinder now. Small chokes will pull the main jets in sooner due to their higher venturi effect. They will also reduce top end response but being an automatic this may not be as much of a concern as early/rich tip in. The idle jets are too small, again it's because each carb is working less on the 12 cylinder displacement. The inner bore size on an F11 jet is 1.5mm, M30's typically use an F8 or F9 jet which has a 2.0mm bore, so this jet is not big enough. I think the F23 is an emmissions carb jet. I suspect that you are using the idle mix screw a lot to compensate for all of this. And yes, I do believe the emulsion tubes are incorrect as you suspect.

Couple other things I need to know:
-what size your Aux venturi is - the piece that sits in front of and holds in the chokes - is it 4.5 or???
-remove the progression hole cover and shine a flashlight into the throat and take a picture of the little progression holes from above.

After confirming the above, I'd consider starting with this setup:

A set of drill jets from Pierce or Carbparts.eu, this will save you time and a lot of money
34mm or 32mm chokes (I have a set of 34mm chokes that I can send you to try - this stuff gets expensive)
45 F8 idle jets (can be drilled out to richen the fuel bore or lean out the air bleed)
120 main jets (also can be enlarged)
170 air correctors (also can be enlarged or just start with your 180's - not much difference)
F11 emulsion tubes, I may have a set of these I don't need anymore that you can have-I will check tonight
35 accel pump jet with a discharge valve TBD

The idea here is that you need to convert the internals set up for 6 carbs for 4 liters to 3 for 3 liters. I believe this is the main reason it's not running properly. And those Ferraris ran rich for max power.
Wonderful research!
Aux is 4.5
Have a drawer full of jet drills going back to the 70s.
Have a drawer of mains and air correctors from other cars with Webers.
Have a new set of idles 45F11 haven't tried.
Have 35 pump jet

Problemo is no inspection port access on these carbs.

If you have a set of F11 tubes I can try, that would be great. All expenses on me. The tubes, for me, are the wild card.

I have kept the smaller chokes in deference to the auto 4HP22. High revs for this engine is 4K. Add that Ferrari was probably over 9:1 and I'm stock flat tops. 170# compression, but..
 

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Stevehose

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Cool carbs, looks like you have idle air bleed screws to balance the barrels - are these screwed in all the way? 30 chokes still seems small, they have a big effect on mixture form one size to another. Will report back on F11's.
 

Stevehose

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Looks like the stock 38DCOE 110/111 for Ferrari had these specs:



Model detailsNumber of cylindersCapacity in ccCarburettor typeCountChoke sizesAuxiliary venturiMain jetIdle jetAir idle jet or holeEmulsion tubeAir correctorStarter jetPump jetBack bleedNeedle valveFloat level
400 GT12 482338 DCOE 110M/11M306.014045 F24155F4119065 F535none150

So the E-tube and idle jets are correct for that application - but not for yours.
 

andyleonard

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Agreed, emulsion tubes and idles jets are the immediate target. I *think* I'm convinced that if I get correct-ish emulsion tubes, then I can sort the idle jets and get rid of the low end richness. Why an "emissions" emulsion tube would produce fatness at low revs/load is still escaping me, especially with a 40 idle jet in there. For the moment I'll stick with the 30 chokes and whatever the aux vents are. If tubes and idles don't get it, chokes and aux vents are next.
 

Stevehose

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Agreed, emulsion tubes and idles jets are the immediate target. I *think* I'm convinced that if I get correct-ish emulsion tubes, then I can sort the idle jets and get rid of the low end richness. Why an "emissions" emulsion tube would produce fatness at low revs/load is still escaping me, especially with a 40 idle jet in there. For the moment I'll stick with the 30 chokes and whatever the aux vents are. If tubes and idles don't get it, chokes and aux vents are next.
An emissions e-tube has more to do with the design of the jetting than being "leaner" because it is in an emissions carb. The F47 tube in my emmission DCOM40's are loaded with big holes, it's to support the number of progression holes as well as in my case, supplying the idle jets with fuel. My idle jets get fuel from the e-tube, not the fuel bowl like typical early DCOE's so I need a big e-tube. The advantage here is that the transition is smoother from idle jets to main jets because they are on the same circuit with less drop off before the mains kick in. Emmissions carbs usually have 4-5 progresion holes vs 2-3 of old DCOE's so they also typically need bigger idle jet bores and bigger air bleed holes. Still weird that they have that tube on a DCOE38, but perhaps this is an early emmissions style carb for the late 70's?
 

andyleonard

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I asked a smart guy a long time ago why a rear wheel bearing for a Ferrari 250 GTE was $120 and the rear wheel bearing for a Maserati Ghibli was $9. He told me it was because Ferrari called the bearing place and *told* them what size to make everything ID and OD and if it needed a row of balls AND a row of rollers to "just do it." Maserati, on the other hand, did the math and found that a common bearing from a Jag Mk10 met all the load specs, so they used that.
Maybe Ferrari called Weber....
 
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