What is this 3.0 CSL worth?
- Thread starter cdk2921
- Start date
I didn't mean as in it's nice - I meant in terms of it being a problem regarding authenticity.
I see, yeah I'd be the same regarding original colour. This could be the original colour though if it is a series 2.
I'm partial to the colour as its the golf csl that I own that got me into them - that and the orange and taiga green are real uk seventies colours and suit the fairly 'crazy' for the time nature of the cars.
I'm partial to the colour as its the golf csl that I own that got me into them - that and the orange and taiga green are real uk seventies colours and suit the fairly 'crazy' for the time nature of the cars.
30csl said:
30CSL,
This is interesting ... I have read somewhere that the last batch of Bats were only delivered in Chamonix and Polaris ... contrary to the first batch (110 cars) which were supplied in other colours. What colour is 2 275 522 if I may ask?
Do you have a link or some documentation showing that the last 57 cars were indeed delivered in more than above 2 colours?
Always on the lookout for documentation about these fascinating cars
Last 57 (one of which I have myself) were delivered in many colors, not just chamonix and polaris. I know of one in Texas that is Tiaga, one in California that is black, the one in question (which is questionable, but not for the reasons being bandied about here) in golf, one in Germany that is fjord, etc. Having read virtually every period road test and article on the last bats I can say I have never read they were all only those two colors.
Surprisingly, there are ten or eleven bat 2's in the US, most of which I know. I had not heard of this car (golf), and the power steering is the single most questionable aspect of the car. Wings could be ordered with two or three uprights, and ducktails could be ordered in the short version without or the wider version with rubber lip.
I would check very, very carefully on the firewall if the vin is stamped in it, those panels can be switched fairly easily, but there is usually some evidence of it having been done. This particular car does appear to have had a hard life, so woudl be very, very careful. One telling feature of all Bat2 cars is the driver's Scheel seat all of which had an adjustable back angle, which no other E9s had. Most German delivery cars had the wings delivered in the trunk since their use was not legal in Germany of all places. Trunk lids were steel with the attachment screw holes predrilled into the inner trunk panel.
All these absolutes being stated, there were still variations by individual car since they were virtually all special order cars. Best advice, caveat emptor, buyer beware.
Surprisingly, there are ten or eleven bat 2's in the US, most of which I know. I had not heard of this car (golf), and the power steering is the single most questionable aspect of the car. Wings could be ordered with two or three uprights, and ducktails could be ordered in the short version without or the wider version with rubber lip.
I would check very, very carefully on the firewall if the vin is stamped in it, those panels can be switched fairly easily, but there is usually some evidence of it having been done. This particular car does appear to have had a hard life, so woudl be very, very careful. One telling feature of all Bat2 cars is the driver's Scheel seat all of which had an adjustable back angle, which no other E9s had. Most German delivery cars had the wings delivered in the trunk since their use was not legal in Germany of all places. Trunk lids were steel with the attachment screw holes predrilled into the inner trunk panel.
All these absolutes being stated, there were still variations by individual car since they were virtually all special order cars. Best advice, caveat emptor, buyer beware.
Malc
Well-Known Member
Hey if you give me 50/60k for my old bucket I will bite your hand off :wink:
On a more serious note
You have to remember that BMW was desperate to shift the last of the cars so they could be ordered with just about anything you wanted, including power steering. The colour was up to you. Remember you could buy an E-Type Jag and still have enough money to run it and fix it for years compared to the cost of an E9 at the time
With any car commanding high prices there should be some form of verifiable history including any modifications done (With BMW parts) in it's life. Lack of history, pictures, knowledge would make me wary.
Also remember the car has been around for plus 30 years so things like plastic header tanks split and break so it could of been replaced with a metal one.
It has probably been "twiddled" with over the years, maybe crashed which isnt as problem as long as it's been fixed properly.
It could of been "ringed"(False Identity), there are ways of checking that which I know but will not make public.
Finally if the seller is "Honest" then they should not mind probing questions or a check with BMW Mobile Tradition to see it it is what it claims to be.
Malc
Malc
Well-Known Member
Hey if you give me 50/60k for my old bucket I will bite your hand off :wink:
On a more serious note
You have to remember that BMW was desperate to shift the last of the cars so they could be ordered with just about anything you wanted, including power steering. The colour was up to you. Remember you could buy an E-Type Jag and still have enough money to run it and fix it for years compared to the cost of an E9 at the time
With any car commanding high prices there should be some form of verifiable history including any modifications done (With BMW parts) in it's life. Lack of history, pictures, knowledge would make me wary.
Also remember the car has been around for plus 30 years so things like plastic header tanks split and break so it could of been replaced with a metal one.
It has probably been "twiddled" with over the years, maybe crashed which isnt as problem as long as it's been fixed properly.
It could of been "ringed"(False Identity), there are ways of checking that which I know but will not make public.
Finally if the seller is "Honest" then they should not mind probing questions, inspections of the car with bits taken off!
A check with BMW Mobile Tradition would be a fisrt port of call to me to see it it is what it claims to be.
Malc
coupeguy said:
Very interesting indeed .. thanks for the clarification.
In the meantime I found a reference to the 2 colours (Polaris and Chamonix) which talks about only the tri-colour stripes being available for these 2 colours. Perhaps this is what got me confused although I am convinced that I read somewhere that only 2 colours were available. Anyway, that's sorted now.
Have a look at this FAQ which IMHO is quite good http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=1
On the topic of power steering I am surprised that you mention that as a questionable aspect of the car ... I thought that manual or power assisted steering was an option on all CSL's.
Great discussion
coupeking
Well-Known Member
CSL S2
<<Surprisingly, there are ten or eleven bat 2's in the US, most of which I know. I had not heard of this car (golf), and the power steering is the single most questionable aspect of the car. Wings could be ordered with two or three uprights, and ducktails could be ordered in the short version without or the wider version with rubber lip. >>
Have 4355030 in my shop storage and it has factory power steering. Have known the car for over 25 years and did the resto myself, so can attest to it's OEM nature. NOT an easy swap for these cars to go from manual to power steering, as the steering column needs changing and is unobtainium in original length.
Agree, an interesting thread.
Peter
<<Surprisingly, there are ten or eleven bat 2's in the US, most of which I know. I had not heard of this car (golf), and the power steering is the single most questionable aspect of the car. Wings could be ordered with two or three uprights, and ducktails could be ordered in the short version without or the wider version with rubber lip. >>
Have 4355030 in my shop storage and it has factory power steering. Have known the car for over 25 years and did the resto myself, so can attest to it's OEM nature. NOT an easy swap for these cars to go from manual to power steering, as the steering column needs changing and is unobtainium in original length.
Agree, an interesting thread.
Peter
Mario L.
Well-Known Member
IRC the car in southern CA that was referenced earlier was just a CSL, not a Bat, and the story was that it was rolled end for end many years ago, when new in Germany , came to the US after as it could not be repaired for use in Germany TUV rules.
(DISCLAIMER, I am not wanting to start some www legend that will ruin some one cars value, this information is only the story I was told while considering the car for a customer)
The roof section was replaced with a sunroof section, and IRC the car had the black CSL stripe.
This does not look like that car, as the other one was in use regularly thru the nineties.
(DISCLAIMER, I am not wanting to start some www legend that will ruin some one cars value, this information is only the story I was told while considering the car for a customer)
The roof section was replaced with a sunroof section, and IRC the car had the black CSL stripe.
This does not look like that car, as the other one was in use regularly thru the nineties.
Have to take exception to your statement the E9 is difficult to convert from power to manual steering box, Peter. If I can do it, I venture to say anybody can. The manual box uses the same steering arm, mounts to the front subframe the same and the steering shaft is easily cut and welded to extend to the the correct length. Or of course a new shaft can easily be machined. I have sold a few manual boxes to folks who have converted to manual steering to their delight at the feel of the car's quicker, more precise steering feel.
cdk2921
Member
maybe this will help?
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/PSportoVeloce/100_1567.jpg?t=1199473462
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i157/PSportoVeloce/100_1567.jpg?t=1199473462
Hi there.
When checking for correct VIN, the stamped one starting and ending with a + sign must be original, untouched and without no doubts. Furthermore, a very good advise is to check the engine number. Normally it should be matching numbers.
Regards
When checking for correct VIN, the stamped one starting and ending with a + sign must be original, untouched and without no doubts. Furthermore, a very good advise is to check the engine number. Normally it should be matching numbers.
Regards
feri
Well-Known Member
I think the "bats are only available in charmonix white and polaris silver" came from 3 sources:
1. In the BMW Six Cylinder Coupes & Saloons Gold Portfolio book there is an article from Classis and Sportcar October 1993. It says "The 3.2 used the lightweight shell (initially available only in Polaris silver or Charmonix white with optional Motorsport stipes)..."
2. BMW The Classic Six Cilinder Coupés book from Martin Buckley says (page 72): "August 1973 ..... Cars painted in Polaris (metallic silver) and Charmonix (white) could be supplied with BMW Motorsport-style three coloured accent stripes".
3. The BMW company. Look at all well knows the periodic brochures / articles / factory photos : all of them showing charmonix or polaris 3.0 CSL cars.
So I think this misinformaion came from both lazy journalists who haven't spent time to find the correct facts, and BMW, which hasn't made photos of the all their 3.0 CSL with different colors.
1. In the BMW Six Cylinder Coupes & Saloons Gold Portfolio book there is an article from Classis and Sportcar October 1993. It says "The 3.2 used the lightweight shell (initially available only in Polaris silver or Charmonix white with optional Motorsport stipes)..."
2. BMW The Classic Six Cilinder Coupés book from Martin Buckley says (page 72): "August 1973 ..... Cars painted in Polaris (metallic silver) and Charmonix (white) could be supplied with BMW Motorsport-style three coloured accent stripes".
3. The BMW company. Look at all well knows the periodic brochures / articles / factory photos : all of them showing charmonix or polaris 3.0 CSL cars.
So I think this misinformaion came from both lazy journalists who haven't spent time to find the correct facts, and BMW, which hasn't made photos of the all their 3.0 CSL with different colors.