Power Window Control

ScottAndrews

Well-Known Member
Site Donor $
Messages
703
Reaction score
417
Location
Petaluma, CA
I am moving this discussion about window control to a new thread, so it does not mess up @rsporsche's thread about fog lamps.

There have been a number of posts and discussions about improving the power windows. Some of these have to do with simply getting the window mechanisms to operate properly (alignment, lubrication, etc.)

Others have discussed various alternatives to the wiring. I am going to assume here that we are talking about three wire motors. If not, many of the same ideas that are likely to be expressed here can be modified to support 2 wire motors. The difference here being that two wire motors require current to reverse direction to make the motor go from up to down. Three wire motors have two opposing windings, so powering one winding makes the motor turn one way, and powering the other makes it go the other way.

The baseline system uses a single pole double throw window switch. The common pole is tied to fused battery power. One of the switched poles goes to one motor winding, and the other goes to the other winding. Move the switch one way and the window goes up. Move it the other way and it goes down.

This basic system works, but it is not really very ideal. First issue is that the switches must carry the full current of the motor, which is 10-15 amps, until the motor stalls, at which time it may peak at much more unless a fuse blows. This not only creates resistance, but it also affects the long term reliability of the window switches. The second problem is that there is a lot of wire between the battery and the window motor (battery to the fuses, fuses to the console switches, from the console switches back through the instrument panel and out through the door hinge to the motor). Both of these conspire to increase the resistance of the circuit, and thereby reduce the torque of the motor. Resulting in slow window movement.

One alternative I have seen discussed a lot is using relays in the doors to power the windows. In this setup the window switch controls one of two relays for each window. The relays take raw power from the fused circuit, and based on lower current signals from the window switch, the relays either power one motor winding or the other. This is a good system since the higher power is controlled by the larger relay contacts, and the wire run is more direct, from the fuse to the relay and to the motor.

The downside of this is that it takes eight relays. One for up and one for down for each of four windows. And, these relayer fairly bulky and hard to install in the door, which is the optimal electrical location.

I have been noodling on various alternatives to this approach. The first is to use power MOSFET transistors instead of relays. This is much simpler and more compact, because the transistors are small, and simpler to control than a relay. Conceptually the approach is the same, but this approach results in a smaller assembly that is easier to mount inside the door. the other advantage is that the window switches use "negative logic" which means they simply ground the control wire, so there is no need to battery power to the switches at all. Here is a circuit diagram for this:
Screenshot 2025-11-20 at 5.05.43 PM.png
 
Last edited:
I have also been wondering how difficult it might be to substantially improve this system by inserting a small microprocessor into the mix. There are literally thousands of micros that can be used. By far the simplest and cheapest is one of the Microchip PIC family. These small (14-20 pin DIP packaged) devices can include A/D converters, serial ports, and many other features. Programming them, while fun, is a bit of a chore, but the program only needs to be developed once.. Using this scheme with the MOSFET circuit above, it is possible to apply the window switch signals to the PIC, apply some software logic to them, and then control the MOSFET motor control transistors. This opens the door for a full suite of window control features that we all take for granted in modern cars:
Auto up
Auto Down
Anti Pinch
Auto stop (top and bottom)
Auto up/down cancel
etc...

Here is a notional diagram of this:

Screenshot 2025-11-20 at 8.41.54 PM.png

The ACS chips are current sensors.

One part of me wonders if doing this sort of violates the originality of the car, but then unless you are using the poorly devised original bone stock approach, you are changing the car, so then why not change this invisible subsystem so it REALLY works, instead of just works a little better?

Thoughts?
 
you know working a little better is a whole lot better than just slightly improving mediocrity. a simple (smaller) control of the motor is a welcome change, i don't know that i have the patience or comprehension to work on the more advanced controls that we have on modern cars ... or what that would require in changes to the basic hardware. i haven't done anything with reworking any of mine yet - so the simplest of things is very interesting to me, especially not having to mount 8 relays (although i own them). i'm about to start installing the physical windows in the next week or so as well as completing the front wiring harness work. sometime in December i should be working on the electrical inside the car.
 
you know working a little better is a whole lot better than just slightly improving mediocrity. a simple (smaller) control of the motor is a welcome change, i don't know that i have the patience or comprehension to work on the more advanced controls that we have on modern cars ... or what that would require in changes to the basic hardware. i haven't done anything with reworking any of mine yet - so the simplest of things is very interesting to me, especially not having to mount 8 relays (although i own them). i'm about to start installing the physical windows in the next week or so as well as completing the front wiring harness work. sometime in December i should be working on the electrical inside the car.
I am about to disassemble mine, so I'll try to get a simple MOSFET prototype together in the next few weeks. Not so sure I want to go a s far as a full "auto-up/down" setup, but it seems like a small relay replacement module that attached to the motor would be a welcome improvement! If it works, I'll send you a set!

Here is a size comparison. Seems much more reasonable to locate in the door than relays:

Screenshot 2025-11-20 at 10.11.47 PM.png

Screenshot 2025-11-20 at 10.12.31 PM.png

S
 
Last edited:
Well, always keep in mind that the next owner of your car (or his garage) should be aware of and understand these upgrades.
Personally I (as an electrical engineer) don't like the idea of putting such electronics in my car.
Regarding your doubts against installing relays inside the door you may consider to install them near the A-column like on this pic courtesy of Uli Venhorst from our german forum.
20240217_153325_s.jpg
 
Last edited:
I am moving this discussion about window control to a new thread, so it does not mess up @rsporsche's thread about fog lamps.

There have been a number of posts and discussions about improving the power windows. Some of these have to do with simply getting the window mechanisms to operate properly (alignment, lubrication, etc.)

Others have discussed various alternatives to the wiring. I am going to assume here that we are talking about three wire motors. If not, many of the same ideas that are likely to be expressed here can be modified to support 2 wire motors. The difference here being that two wire motors require current to reverse direction to make the motor go from up to down. Three wire motors have two opposing windings, so powering one winding makes the motor turn one way, and powering the other makes it go the other way.

The baseline system uses a single pole double throw window switch. The common pole is tied to fused battery power. One of the switched poles goes to one motor winding, and the other goes to the other winding. Move the switch one way and the window goes up. Move it the other way and it goes down.

This basic system works, but it is not really very ideal. First issue is that the switches must carry the full current of the motor, which is 10-15 amps, until the motor stalls, at which time it may peak at much more unless a fuse blows. This not only creates resistance, but it also affects the long term reliability of the window switches. The second problem is that there is a lot of wire between the battery and the window motor (battery to the fuses, fuses to the console switches, from the console switches back through the instrument panel and out through the door hinge to the motor). Both of these conspire to increase the resistance of the circuit, and thereby reduce the torque of the motor. Resulting in slow window movement.

One alternative I have seen discussed a lot is using relays in the doors to power the windows. In this setup the window switch controls one of two relays for each window. The relays take raw power from the fused circuit, and based on lower current signals from the window switch, the relays either power one motor winding or the other. This is a good system since the higher power is controlled by the larger relay contacts, and the wire run is more direct, from the fuse to the relay and to the motor.

The downside of this is that it takes eight relays. One for up and one for down for each of four windows. And, these relayer fairly bulky and hard to install in the door, which is the optimal electrical location.

I have been noodling on various alternatives to this approach. The first is to use power MOSFET transistors instead of relays. This is much simpler and more compact, because the transistors are small, and simpler to control than a relay. Conceptually the approach is the same, but this approach results in a smaller assembly that is easier to mount inside the door. the other advantage is that the window switches use "negative logic" which means they simply ground the control wire, so there is no need to battery power to the switches at all. Here is a circuit diagram for this:
I used 8 micro relays - worked great

I am moving this discussion about window control to a new thread, so it does not mess up @rsporsche's thread about fog lamps.

There have been a number of posts and discussions about improving the power windows. Some of these have to do with simply getting the window mechanisms to operate properly (alignment, lubrication, etc.)

Others have discussed various alternatives to the wiring. I am going to assume here that we are talking about three wire motors. If not, many of the same ideas that are likely to be expressed here can be modified to support 2 wire motors. The difference here being that two wire motors require current to reverse direction to make the motor go from up to down. Three wire motors have two opposing windings, so powering one winding makes the motor turn one way, and powering the other makes it go the other way.

The baseline system uses a single pole double throw window switch. The common pole is tied to fused battery power. One of the switched poles goes to one motor winding, and the other goes to the other winding. Move the switch one way and the window goes up. Move it the other way and it goes down.

This basic system works, but it is not really very ideal. First issue is that the switches must carry the full current of the motor, which is 10-15 amps, until the motor stalls, at which time it may peak at much more unless a fuse blows. This not only creates resistance, but it also affects the long term reliability of the window switches. The second problem is that there is a lot of wire between the battery and the window motor (battery to the fuses, fuses to the console switches, from the console switches back through the instrument panel and out through the door hinge to the motor). Both of these conspire to increase the resistance of the circuit, and thereby reduce the torque of the motor. Resulting in slow window movement.

One alternative I have seen discussed a lot is using relays in the doors to power the windows. In this setup the window switch controls one of two relays for each window. The relays take raw power from the fused circuit, and based on lower current signals from the window switch, the relays either power one motor winding or the other. This is a good system since the higher power is controlled by the larger relay contacts, and the wire run is more direct, from the fuse to the relay and to the motor.

The downside of this is that it takes eight relays. One for up and one for down for each of four windows. And, these relayer fairly bulky and hard to install in the door, which is the optimal electrical location.

I have been noodling on various alternatives to this approach. The first is to use power MOSFET transistors instead of relays. This is much simpler and more compact, because the transistors are small, and simpler to control than a relay. Conceptually the approach is the same, but this approach results in a smaller assembly that is easier to mount inside the door. the other advantage is that the window switches use "negative logic" which means they simply ground the control wire, so there is no need to battery power to the switches at all. Here is a circuit diagram for this:
View attachment 211828
 
.....these relayer fairly bulky and hard to install in the door, which is the optimal electrical location.

I have been noodling on various alternatives to this approach. The first is to use power MOSFET transistors instead of relays. This is much simpler and more compact, because the transistors are small,
There is no question that a MOSFET would be smaller than a conventional relay. But honestly, the availability of volume inside the door and rear window areas of an e9 is not an issue. It's pretty easy to package a couple of normal-sized relays into those spaces. Micro relays, as Socrates recommends in post #7, would be even easier (as long as they can handle the motors' current draw).

Admittedly if you want to add power window functions controlled by a microprocessor, MOSFETs would be easier to interface with the controller.

Rear window assy (1).jpg
 
Last edited:
Back
Top