1973 3.0 CS - 35K miles

[JFENG]

To your point

E9s are dead in the water!!!

(snip)!

Why are E9s still so dead when the entire collector car market is on FIRE?

It feels as if we're approaching another bubble in the vintage car market. Yet, E9's do seem to be appreciating a bit slower than the hottest cars. On the other hand, many classics are still down from their peak 10 years ago (XKE's, for example). In that regard, E9's seem to be steadily climbing. 10 years ago I don't think you could sell an E9 for $75k, and yet we just saw a Werkshoppe car sell for about that.

I'm just saying E9's might not be at the front, but they are going up.

Porsche's are a bit stronger because, IMHO, Porsche represents reliable, usuable sports car performance where as BMW still has a bit of a yuppie stigma to it. E9's are still more GT cars than sports cars. And there's not as strong a lineage from 1969 till now ... whereas you can still go out and buy a 9xx sports car and it still offers world beating performance for the money.

John

 

[rsporsche]

the only issue for me was - if i was going to buy an original car, i would want a 4 speed originally with a 4 speed vin number. i have a great 2800cs that is a significantly modified car (in the proper ways) 3.5L, no rust that i can find, 5 speed, bilsteins, lowered, etc.

btw, changing the panel above the steering column to take the P-R-N-D indicator off is a significant PITA.

i should buy it or a car like it ... but it would have to be after the first of the year after i settle a job issue. i still kick myself for not buying the ceylon car from Peter Tackas in the beginning of 2011.

 

[polaris68]

E9s are dead in the water!!!

Here is offered for sale the right car (3.0CS), the right year (72), a great color(Fjord), the right options (Power Windows, Air, Sunroof) described and verified by the experts as a super nice car with ultra low miles (35,000) and it is still for sale! It makes no sense...

If that car was a Porsche 912 it would have sold in a minute... If it were a 911T it would have sold in a second... If the car was a 911S it would have sold in a Nano Second with a hundred over asking price offers!

Why are E9s still so dead when the entire collector car market is on FIRE?

Attention everyone. The authority has spoken. Thank you Jeff for enlightening us all.

 

[execmalibu]

Don't Shoot the messenger.... If I am wrong explain 75 bids to $131K for a 73 911S

I own (4) E9s and would love to see them appreciate like Porsches, Ferraris, MBs and even Muscle cars...

If you think I am wrong or mistaken check the recent sales and E9 ebay auctions. This is not definitive but gives a pretty good idea of what the E9 market is doing... There have been around 10-12 E9s offered for sale recently some appearing very nice from Mark Starr(Hunting Ridge Motors) and others not so nice... I have seen the same cars offered for weeks and or months without being sold.

If the car being offered that all who have seen the car agree is about as good as E9s get with the only possible flaw being that it is an Auto and this car does not sell very quickly then explain to me slowly what I am missing...

Currently (today) on ebay is a 1973 911S that was listed two days ago starting at $25K... In less then two days the 911S already has 75 bids which is a huge number of bids for any car and has already bid to over $135,000 and there are another two days left before the auction ends... Shouldn't a super nice E9 be easily worth at just 25% and sell quickly of what the 911S has bid to?

The E9 listed for sale here and on BAT has been for sale for almost two weeks and apparently according to the seller no one has made a "reasonable offer" with his asking price around $35,000.

If someone anyone from this website had made the seller a fair offer close to the asking price I doubt I would be typing this response!

Again a 1973 Porsche brings at least (75) offers so far in just two days and an E9 brings (0) offers in two weeks...

Please don't blame or shoot the messenger...

 

[kasbatts]

I think a big part of this is that not so many people know what e9's are, they only made 30,000, small numbers really
As a comparison how many classic 911's were made? And don't forget the 911 "look" started much earlier with the 356, and the big thing is they still make them, the basic look is still there, an very day reminder to people.

IMHO, the e9 should be worth a lot more than it is, there are not many cars of the e9's era (in the same 70's price bracket) that come close to the combined, specification, performance and looks.

And don't start me on the value of Mustangs!! We've had that discussion before, but hey, it's all about what spins your wheels I guess

 

[WALTER]

E9s are dead in the water!!!

Here is offered for sale the right car (3.0CS), the right year (72), a great color(Fjord), the right options (Power Windows, Air, Sunroof) described and verified by the experts as a super nice car with ultra low miles (35,000) and it is still for sale! It makes no sense...

If that car was a Porsche 912 it would have sold in a minute... If it were a 911T it would have sold in a second... If the car was a 911S it would have sold in a Nano Second with a hundred over asking price offers!

Why are E9s still so dead when the entire collector car market is on FIRE?

I think we have been our own worst enemy on values. How many times does a guy get flamed on this forum for asking a lot of money for a rusty CS or even a really clean example? How many times do we say it's so expensive to restore a coupe? But if porsche guys pay an arm and a leg for a fixer or astronomical prices for well sorted examples, or to restore one, that's just the price of admission. Maybe its time to think of these cars as investments, or at least collector items. Just sayin'. You want a classic BMW, a BMW that is probably top two in design (the other being the 507) and is limited production, then you have to pay the price to join the club; the CS is a bargain classic no longer.

I think there are signs that this is becoming the case. A couple of weeks ago when I looked on ebay there were about 5 coupes for sale; not one of them was asking less than $20K and there were two (non-CSL) that were over $50K. Granted, I don't know if any of them sold, but that was the first time I saw prices at that level on ebay. I've also noticed on average there seem to be fewer rust bucket/basket case coupes for sale. Maybe this means that average/good examples are starting to out number the bad ones through attrition. This should help values in the future as the perception/reality changes that all coupes are rusty.

 

[ccr2002]

E9s are dead in the water!!!

Here is offered for sale the right car (3.0CS), the right year (72), a great color(Fjord), the right options (Power Windows, Air, Sunroof) described and verified by the experts as a super nice car with ultra low miles (35,000) and it is still for sale! It makes no sense...

If that car was a Porsche 912 it would have sold in a minute... If it were a 911T it would have sold in a second... If the car was a 911S it would have sold in a Nano Second with a hundred over asking price offers!

Why are E9s still so dead when the entire collector car market is on FIRE?

I think you are certainly right that e9s are lagging early porsches (I have 1968 911S SWT) but I know our coupes are on the rise...many good sale prices have been logged in the past few years and the asking/selling prices are certainly up from 5 years ago.

In regards to this awesome car...I think the problem is that it is too nice for many to modify either out of respect for its originality or bc the entry price seems to high to then go spend more on the modifications. As for the former, I understand but the problem I see is that most people do not want an automatic or vinyl...either as a driver or as a collectible. Regarding the latter and it being too nice to modify...let me just say that as one who has tried to make jabberjaw's interior as nice as the body and engine are and having just fixed a bunch of rust on taiga csl that starting with this pristine car is worth every penny for someone who wants a fjord coupe to drive and enjoy or modify to their hearts content (unless you can do the work yourself to your satisfaction).

So, I wish there was someone out there that wanted this car the way it is but I fear the automatic is holding it back. But it is worth a lot as a starting point for doing whatever you want. I bet BAT would bring offers but they might be held down by these factors. If it was a 4sp I bet it would be gone by now.

 

[GroupeB]

Calshamus:

Seeking a unmolested original car, please give a call or write. My details are in the Registry. Do not mod the car yet!

GroupeB

 

[execmalibu]

CCR2002 68 911S SFT is a GREAT car!

Your 1968 911S SFT great car and basically the same as a 67 911S... Except that the engineers at Porsche decided for 1968 only to use a skinned Elephant to cover the entire interior:lol:...

I think that even with the Auto and Vinyl that 3.0CS should have sold almost instantly at $35K because of the originality factor (everyone knows you can almost never buy "original") and the documented super low milage (which you also cannot buy)...

My buddy has an incredibly nice 1972 Polaris 3.0CS and he could care a less that it is an Automatic... The car is nearly perfect and 3 years ago he gave all the money $13,500

I think a very original and nice 911 even with a Sportomatic or a super original low milage 280SL with a stick (SL buyers like Autos) would sell instantly...

Same with a super original E-Type even with an Auto if the car was a no excuses super original example there are a lot of buyers that would overlook the negative part of the Auto and buy the car instantly...

 

[CookeD]

Not enough of them built to make spares plentiful, and the false notion that they're expensive to own / operate scares folks off.

I also think the automatic is a negative thing in a vintage BMW, because they were built to be driver's cars. Factor in the lack of leather, and those two items are really probably issues with finding the right buyer.

Also, what's going on with the VIN plate being attached to the blower cover, and the tar sheets missing from the shock towers? Were some of them delivered like this?

 

[execmalibu]

Flash!!!! Just in! Please do not shoot the messenger

I was just sent this recent article from an avid car collector that knows I like E9s....

"The 19th book of Hagerty Price Guide was published earlier this month, and three of Hagerty’s seven primary collector car indices increased in value. One index declined, while the remaining three were static.

Leading the charge were the Blue Chip, Ferrari and German indices, all of which reflect the upper strata of the collector car market at large. Ferraris in particular increased by 8% over the last period, while Blue Chip cars moved 5% in the positive, and the German index improved by 3%. All three of these indices are at their highest levels since their index inception dates of September 2006.

Within these three sectors, major movers include the Ferrari California Spyders, with LWB variants climbing by 13% in just four months. Early Porsche 911S models were also strong movers at 12%, while Porsche 356s such as the Gmund coupe (up 29%) and the A 1600 Super Speedster (up 13%) appreciated at double-digit clips. Perhaps most remarkable is that of these indices’ 59 component cars, 35 have improved by 10% or more during the past 12 months.


Only two cars have slipped during this window (BMW 3.0CSL down 1%, and the 1967 Corvette 427/435 convertible down 2%)."

 

[CookeD]

Does it happen to mention the sample size for each % gain / loss?

 

[JDJ]

Hagerty doesn't seem to reflect reality generally. The idea that the coupes are under pressure would need support. I know that my sale and many others would provide a lift. We need more reportable transparent sales, even if blind. This market is largely self inflicted.

 

[calshamus]

Posted more pics and a video for an interested buyer for all to see. Check the Picasa link.

 

[polaris68]

I was just sent this recent article from an avid car collector that knows I like E9s....

"The 19th book of Hagerty Price Guide was published earlier this month, and three of Hagerty’s seven primary collector car indices increased in value. One index declined, while the remaining three were static.

Leading the charge were the Blue Chip, Ferrari and German indices, all of which reflect the upper strata of the collector car market at large. Ferraris in particular increased by 8% over the last period, while Blue Chip cars moved 5% in the positive, and the German index improved by 3%. All three of these indices are at their highest levels since their index inception dates of September 2006.

Within these three sectors, major movers include the Ferrari California Spyders, with LWB variants climbing by 13% in just four months. Early Porsche 911S models were also strong movers at 12%, while Porsche 356s such as the Gmund coupe (up 29%) and the A 1600 Super Speedster (up 13%) appreciated at double-digit clips. Perhaps most remarkable is that of these indices’ 59 component cars, 35 have improved by 10% or more during the past 12 months.


Only two cars have slipped during this window (BMW 3.0CSL down 1%, and the 1967 Corvette 427/435 convertible down 2%)."

Curious as to why you own four E9's if you believe coupes are "dead in the water?"

 

[kasbatts]

Was thinking today about my comment re the e9 not being well known and had a little laugh to myself.
I can still remember ringing my local BMW dealers parts department about 4 years ago and being asked what model I had
"an e9" I replied ------ silence, a what? Is that a three series?
My point is, if the staff at the dealers don't know what they are, what possible chance do we have?

Any one else had an experience like this?

 

[execmalibu]

Polaris68... I own (4) E9s because they are absolutely beautiful cars.

While not quite as beautiful as my Dino Spyder the E9 is one of the most beautiful Coupes of the 1970s era...

The E9 styling for some might be in the same iconic class as the Ferraris Coupes like the Daytona, 330GTC...

As far as being a "drivers car" I totally disagree...

The standard E9 (2800CS and 3.0CS) are very comfortable GT (Grand Touring) cars even considered a great road car but definitely not a "drivers car" from the era... The standard E9 like my 2800CS (4 speed) is sedate and under powered in stock form... The CSL is a whole different story!

A "drivers car" from the early 1970s would be more like a Dino, Daytona, 911E/S, E-Type, 914/6, CSL, Aston Martin etc...

The standard E9 is more in the class of the Mercedes 280SL or SE Coupe, Jag XJ6s, Jensens, Ferrari 400i etc which are all great European (GT) road cars.

My CSi has been upgraded with a 3.5, is Lowered, has Bilsteins, a 5 speed, 7" wheels, big brakes, Limited slip etc etc and the car is much closer to being a true drivers car after having these extensive mods but is still not quite there... Maybe I need to add some lightness...

 

[CookeD]

BMW built it's brand (and primarily used the 2002, Bavaria (in the U.S.), and the E9 / BMW Motorsport program to do so) as the anti-Mercedes.

Based on a focus of building high-end cars that are sporting and fun to drive, BMW's brand building for the last 40 years has been based on building driver's cars.

- I had to go back and edit my response because your post is valid-- The stock 3.0CS is considerably softer and less sporting than a 3.0 CS that has been given the once-over with desirable and proven upgrades like suspension, tires, drivetrain swaps, etc... However, I don't think that being stock makes any E9 less of a driver's car in the sense that you'd want to own one as it's not a commodity to get you from Point A to B, but instead is something to have if you enjoy the ride / enjoy driving. That's their brand strategy, then and now.

This could be why you see E9s that have been modified with craftsman-level workmanship and the desired upgrades selling at a premium over 100% stock examples-- Because it makes them more enjoyable to operate, and doesn't detract from the essence of what the car really is.

Pertaining this this thread, I do think the automatic / vinyl holds this car back. If it were mine, I'd use this as the basis for a fun build, and put all the stock parts on a shelf for the next buyer.

 

[G]

Lovely coupe and a really nice find if its as original as stated. But lets not forget its only been for sale for 8 days ,and basically advertised nowhere.

I'm sure the seller can get what he would like for it , maybe need to be a little more patient and more advertising would probably help as well.

 

[GroupeB]

Shawn:

Lunch cancelled, call when you can.
Groupe B