195/70R14

Dougal Cawley

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Hi

Pirelli have now made the Cinturato CN36 in the size 195/70VR14.


its a high quality tyre made with modern quality control and compounds and in a carcass structure that is suited to your car with a genuine period tread pattern and the side wall looks right. to my knowledge it is the only proper classic tyre in the size 195/70R14

If you are in germany you can get them from Munchner Oldtimer Reifen or other international dealers can be found through cinturato.net

they look like this
 

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Hello there Dougal
Do you have a suggestion for those of us that run 16" offset wheels ?
205 / 55 at front
225 / 50 at rear
CN36 are appealing if available in these sizes
 
Hello there Dougal
Do you have a suggestion for those of us that run 16" offset wheels ?
205 / 55 at front
225 / 50 at rear
CN36 are appealing if available in these sizes

Er - i sort of do, but i don't think you will like it.

Sorry - but the answer is get some 14" wheels. I'm afraid the ride will be badly compromised and your chassis isn't built to drive nicely with 55% profile tyres. They are going to track and make your steering slower and more heavy. The larger rear wheel is going to effect the balance of the car and make it tend toward understeer. Any form of predictable, progressive handling went out the window with that wide square shouldered fat rear foot print. sorry.

However if you liked the look of 16" wheels, which is the only real reason to percevier with the handling and ride deficiencies of that set up, (unless you are actually on a perfectly smooth race track), then the closest you can get to a tyre that has any sympathy for your car geometry it would be the Pirelli P7. it is a mid 1970s tyre so is deigned to work in conjunction with the geometry of the super cars of the day. (including the BMW M1) It will handle better than a more modern tyres of that period would do on your car. but really a more rounded shoulder and taller side wall with less foot print will be the best.


Even on modern cars these silly 20" wheels are fashion over function. A modern Merc with big fat AMG wheels would make a much nicer car to drive on the road on its standard wheels. Diminishing the side wall height just ruins the ride. Wider front tyres make the steering dreadful, but a modern car will overcome the short fall by adding swaths of caster which are overcome again by clever modern steering. You only really get extra grip because the modern suspention is stiffer and doesn't travel as far, so the car doesn't lean in the corners, while at the same time adding adverse camber as the car leans a little bit to keep the wide foot print in contact with the road, with an old car as it leans it picks up most of the foot print off the road and you turn a corner into a series of twitches.

what people do to a race car doesn not make a nice road car.

I am sorry that is all quite brutal. However if you are going to stick 16" the Pirelli P7 will be the best option. I got heavily involved with the Countach fraternity, as they were having difficulty because the only tyres available for their ridculously wide (though really cool) wheels and tyres were a more modern tyre carcass which did not suit the earlier Countach. When we managed to get the P7 made again, they were over the moon, and there was streams of coments about how much better they were to drive, now that they could fit the P7 again.

have a look at this thread


and again sorry for not wrapping it up in a bit more cotton wool.

handling.jpg
 
Er - i sort of do, but i don't think you will like it.

Sorry - but the answer is get some 14" wheels. I'm afraid the ride will be badly compromised and your chassis isn't built to drive nicely with 55% profile tyres. They are going to track and make your steering slower and more heavy. The larger rear wheel is going to effect the balance of the car and make it tend toward understeer. Any form of predictable, progressive handling went out the window with that wide square shouldered fat rear foot print. sorry.

However if you liked the look of 16" wheels, which is the only real reason to percevier with the handling and ride deficiencies of that set up, (unless you are actually on a perfectly smooth race track), then the closest you can get to a tyre that has any sympathy for your car geometry it would be the Pirelli P7. it is a mid 1970s tyre so is deigned to work in conjunction with the geometry of the super cars of the day. (including the BMW M1) It will handle better than a more modern tyres of that period would do on your car. but really a more rounded shoulder and taller side wall with less foot print will be the best.


Even on modern cars these silly 20" wheels are fashion over function. A modern Merc with big fat AMG wheels would make a much nicer car to drive on the road on its standard wheels. Diminishing the side wall height just ruins the ride. Wider front tyres make the steering dreadful, but a modern car will overcome the short fall by adding swaths of caster which are overcome again by clever modern steering. You only really get extra grip because the modern suspention is stiffer and doesn't travel as far, so the car doesn't lean in the corners, while at the same time adding adverse camber as the car leans a little bit to keep the wide foot print in contact with the road, with an old car as it leans it picks up most of the foot print off the road and you turn a corner into a series of twitches.

what people do to a race car doesn not make a nice road car.

I am sorry that is all quite brutal. However if you are going to stick 16" the Pirelli P7 will be the best option. I got heavily involved with the Countach fraternity, as they were having difficulty because the only tyres available for their ridculously wide (though really cool) wheels and tyres were a more modern tyre carcass which did not suit the earlier Countach. When we managed to get the P7 made again, they were over the moon, and there was streams of coments about how much better they were to drive, now that they could fit the P7 again.

have a look at this thread


and again sorry for not wrapping it up in a bit more cotton wool.

View attachment 185701
Well done. This post should be pinned the the “E9 Tech Info” section. ;)
 
FWIW there are two reviews from Road & Track of US speced cars posted on this site. One is of the 1970 2800CS and the other a 1973 3.0CS. Both of those articles list the cars as wearing Michelin XAS 175HR-14 tires. The 3.0CS actually belonged to an R&T staff member. This suggests to me that the tires listed were OE, as I doubt somebody who wrote for a car magazine would have replaced OE tires with smaller/less capable tires.
 
Thank you Dougal - this is really interesting information to digest.
Personally I like the style of the larger wheel whilst at the same time don't throw my car around on the road too much. I'm happy with the way it handles, but perhaps only because I've not experience what could be. I'll consider the P7's next time it's time to change. Thanks again - appreciate your input.
 
Recently, I changed my wheels from the original stock 14-inch to a set of staggered 16-inch Coupe King wheels. The new wheels are paired with Pirelli P7 tires, 205 width in the front and 225 width in the rear. I am pleased with the aesthetic enhancement and improved handling characteristics of the new setup. While the ride is slightly firmer compared to the previous 14-inch wheels, the vehicle exhibits enhanced stability and cornering capabilities, particularly on winding roads.
 

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Thank you Dougal - this is really interesting information to digest.
Personally I like the style of the larger wheel whilst at the same time don't throw my car around on the road too much. I'm happy with the way it handles, but perhaps only because I've not experience what could be. I'll consider the P7's next time it's time to change. Thanks again - appreciate your input.

Hi

if you don't throw your car around, the one advantage that fitting wider modern tyres will give is shorter straightline stopping distances. oo! - 2 advantages less straight line wheels spin (mind you i quite like a bit of wheel spin)

In the corners you loose the experience of progressive handling where the car progressively starts to move under you, it will grip solidly then let go, then grip, then let go.

Though my scientific diagram in one sense demonstrates why i am a tyre dealer instead of a famous artist, it does demonstrates the different benefits of the rounder shouldered tyre on a classic car that leans, the wheels lean with it, and the contact point moves around the shoulder of the tyre. This doesn't work on a more modern tyre, and the wider the tyre the more dramatic the effect. Actually the picture of the modern car should not be leaning as much because they don't, that is how they keep all that foot print on the road, that and advers camber.

With bigger wider tyres the car will feel planted, because it is planted untill it isn't. However with a proper period carcass; (not a modern tyre with the right size written on the side of it), you get a lighter, more precise steering, that feels nimble. If you want, without pressing on too hard, you can begin too feel the beginnings of the edge of the grip, the difference is, if you press on further you can truly experience the progressive handling as the car will move more under neath you, this can be adjusted with the throttle pedal. The grey area between full grip and in the hedge is greater. you have more warning before it has broken away. Which does mean when that numpty appears from behind a bus and you have to take avoiding action you are less likely to loose it.

This is a progressive car.


that is 120 mph on a 450-19 cross ply tyre, (no points for spotting the tenuous BMW link)

This is what Michelin say in their 1972 fitment guide.

1972 Michelin BMW Fitments Page 2.jpg



then this is wht they say in 1974


1974 Michelin BMW Fitments Page 1.jpg
1974 Michelin BMW Fitments Page 2.jpg


Then this is what they said in 1977.

1977 Michelin BMW Fitments Page 3.jpg


We do have the Michelin XAS tyre in stock.


And i have to say it is a great tyre. I have had a few cars on XAS tyre, Cortina with a Zetech engine and a welded diff XAS on the front loads of fun, bit of a silly track car really. But my Daimler V8 and Alfa Spider were fabulous on XAS They are another great option.
 
I appreciate your joining our forum and sharing your knowledge of vintage tires with the forum. Your "scientific" drawings of old vs new cars turning are worth the price of admission alone, but this line takes the cake for me:

"The grey area between full grip and in the hedge is greater. you have more warning before it has broken away."
 
I recently installed the Michelin XAS in the Fulvia. Noticeable improvement over the modern Vredesteins I had. Handling is great presumably due to the round edge that has been discussed above, and it is way lighter steering when parking which helps car with no assist.
I thought 175 would be too narrow for the E9, but perhaps it allows installing non-power steering boxes, which I hear is good for highway feel...

 
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I recently installed the Michelin XAS in the Fulvia. Noticeable improvement over the modern Vredesteins I had. Handling is great presumably due to the round edge that has been discussed above, and it is way lighter steering when parking which helps car with no assist.
I thought 175 would be too narrow for the E9, but perhaps it allows installing non-power steering boxes, which I hear is good for highway feel...


I love the Michelin XAS. they are truly great tyres.


Im constantly batting away encouraging to fit thinner tyres on classic cars. In the 1970s everyone wore flares and decided wider tyres were better. neither is always right.

If say for example (i'm making this up to explain a principal) you fitted a tyre on a car that was twice as wide then you wouldn't get twice as much grip, becuase, the weight that is pushing the tyre onto the road to get that grip is spread over a greater area, so you would have half as many lb per sqare inch, so each square inch in contact with the road would grip less, if you see what i mean.l

Also with a fatter tyre, the outer extremities of your tyres foot print are further away from the steering components, giving them more leaverage on your steering components. Increasing the wear. Yes you can numb that extra load with power steering, but that load is still wearing your components, no one like sloopy steering components where you can't feel what is going on because of the power steering. but yes an over tyred car is hard work in a car park.

The other unpleasant side effect of oversized tyres is tracking. this is where the outer extremities of the tyres pick up the unevenness of the road, and kind of pull at your steering. the way moder cars fix this is by haveing a load of caster (inclined king pins) this of course also dramatically increases the load on the steering, which again gets numbed by power steering.

I have dealers who are putting fat modern tyres on a car because the tyres are cheap and then people are fitting powere steering without putting 2 and 2 together. Can manufacturers didn't just guess what is the best tyre for a car they did science, maths and testing. they didnt just sit in a pub pontificating and then take the opinion of the person who sounded the most convincing.

If a 1970 model of a car fitted a 165R15, but then the later updated 1980 model of a car fits a 195/65R15 you can bet your underpants that they didn't just fit new wheels and tyres. There will be other changes to the steering and suspension to keep all the footprint on the tarmac: stiffer anti roll bar, stiffer springs maybe, bit of adverse camber that sort of thing.
 
...
If say for example (i'm making this up to explain a principal) you fitted a tyre on a car that was twice as wide then you wouldn't get twice as much grip, becuase, the weight that is pushing the tyre onto the road to get that grip is spread over a greater area, so you would have half as many lb per sqare inch, so each square inch in contact with the road would grip less, if you see what i mean.l
...
Agreed. I always thought the benefit of wider is that there are less chances that road imperfections affect the grip as the area of contact is wider. Imagine a small water or oil patch or a pothole in the road. On an ideal road it does not matter.

The second advantage is presumably that the heat developed by braking is less on a larger area of contact. I read that the surface temperature determines when the object enters the dynamic friction coefficient, and that is a big deal...

I do not understand the physics of a wider tire wearing the steering components but I believe it is true as the Lancia gurus sell steering and suspension upgrades for modern tires!
 
Agreed. I always thought the benefit of wider is that there are less chances that road imperfections affect the grip as the area of contact is wider. Imagine a small water or oil patch or a pothole in the road. On an ideal road it does not matter.

The second advantage is presumably that the heat developed by braking is less on a larger area of contact. I read that the surface temperature determines when the object enters the dynamic friction coefficient, and that is a big deal...

I do not understand the physics of a wider tire wearing the steering components but I believe it is true as the Lancia gurus sell steering and suspension upgrades for modern tires!
Hi

Agreed there are advantages with wider tyres, which is why car manufacturers developed the steering and suspension to be able to keep the foot print of these wider tyres on the road. but without that further developed chassis geometry, the only real advantages on an older car is shorter straight line stopping distances and less wheel spin, which comes at the expense of other features i have explained.

the extra wear on steering components comes from the extra load generated by having more wider rubber on th road, it isn't just the extra foot prin width it is the exctra leaverage generated by them being further away from the king pin line. (the axis around which it steers.)
 
FWIW there are two reviews from Road & Track of US spec'd cars posted on this site. One is of the 1970 2800CS and the other a 1973 3.0CS. Both of those articles list the cars as wearing Michelin XAS 175HR-14 tires. The 3.0CS actually belonged to an R&T staff member. This suggests to me that the tires listed were OE, as I doubt somebody who wrote for a car magazine would have replaced OE tires with smaller/less capable tires.

From the July 1973 Road & Track article:

"Strangely, the narrow track was left narrow and the car still looks crab-tracked, at least with the too-small tires fitted for the U.S. version. In Europe, and hopefully here soon too, the car comes with fat 195/70-14 V-rated tires . . . . ."

"The CS’s brakes are greatly improved from the 2800CS's disc-drum combination. Now they breeze through our fade test as if it were nothing. They even manage descent stopping distances from freeway speed, but not without some drama: the rear brakes are the first to lock up in a panic stop, so the car veers off course, and the fronts aren’t much less likely to lock. The fault is the tires: simply too small for the job. There is some squeal in everyday gentle driving- not an uncommon fault with disc brakes designed for high-speed work.”
 
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