Answering the question of what's worth more: Restored or survivor?

[Brent]

Which is more valuable: Restored or survivor?

Here's a great article this morning over at Barn Finds: http://barnfinds.com/pristine-or-patina/

Pristine or Patina?
Jan 20, 2014 by Jesse


A few weeks ago Hemmings featured two 1956 Mercedes Gullwings that were going to be auctioned off in Scottsdale. They were both black over red, but one was completely restored and the other an original survivor. What better way to answer the question of which is better, original or restored? Well, the auctions are over and we have the verdict for you. We think you will be surprised!

Never before have we seen a better comparison to test the theory of which is better. What are the odds that two identical 300 SLs would show up at the same auction? One original and the other restored? They both looked beautiful in our eyes and we would have had a hard time deciding which one to pursue. We waited anxiously for Gooding to post the auction results so we could see which one was deemed more valuable by the bidders.


The auction house predicted that the restored car would sell for about $300k more than the barn find. Boy, were they wrong! The restored car (Lot 122) sold for $1,402,500 while the unrestored one (Lot 42) went for… $1,897,500! That is a $495,000 premium for patina! So, we think the age old question of which is better has been answered. They are only original once guys, so keep them that way if at all possible. Your bank account will thank you!

Read more at http://barnfinds.com/pristine-or-patina/

 

[jmackro]

An interesting discussion and certainly an illogical outcome. Here are a few random thoughts:

- Any auction is a crapshoot. You could bring those two gullwings to another auction and have a completely different result. So I wouldn't draw any conclusions from this one data point.

- Even if barn find gullwings did outsell restored gullwings at one hundred out of one hundred auctions, I'm not sure you could generalize that result to lesser cars (like e9's). While it is more expensive to restore a gullwing than a lesser car, the ratio of restoration cost to market value is much smaller on a high dollar car like a 300SL or an Enzo era Ferrari than for an e9. I believe that ratio influences the relative values of barnfinds vs restored.

- Some cars that are described as "barnfinds" are really just hopeless junkers. That unrestored 300SL at Goodings Scottsdale seemed to be in pretty decent shape - the seats looked like the worse part. This is typical of cars that were expensive when new and which remained valuable throughout their lives - no one let high school students drive them or parked them in a field for 20 years. Craigslist and ebay are full of less valuable cars that have been allowed to deteriorate which are described as "barnfinds" - these are not worth more than restored examples (though their sellers usually think they are!).

 

[Lotuss7]

There has been a swing for sure. Particular vehicle will make a difference as well. Rarity desirability etc.

As for E9s. i believe an absolutely pristine, rust free, low mileage original car should bring the premium and that will increase over time. However unless absolutely pristine the sorted (and now rust free) restored car will carry the premium.

A clean all original car that has patina is always my personal preference. My coupe does not have original paint but the work was done 20 years ago with pre EPA Glasurit. Almost but not quite perfect and a soft patina. Looks factory. Love it.

 

[JFENG]

restored, except for CSL

Given the infamous rust issues, I'd hazard a guess that only a super low mileage CSL that is perfectly preserved or an important race car would be worth more original than restored.

 

[NewSixCoupe]

The restored car underwent a paint/interior color change...

 

[Gernstetter]

The restored car underwent a paint/interior color change...

BMW cars are an enigma, many modified cars sell for way more than other makes, but for my money and experience, the most important things are quite simple,

Matching numbers, car repainted in original color, stock drivetrain, no stereo upgrades, tastefully restored interiors using original materials, etc.

The problem with overly restored cars is they age if you drive them, so try to maintain a well kept car and enjoy it.

Unfortunately, there were many C9 cars made, they will NEVER reach absurd levels, except for rare batmobiles, etc.

But remember the number of originally maintained cars goes down every year. I have been a collector of rare motorcycles for 30 years and make no mistake, original unmolested bikes, even those with faded original paint ALWAYS command the most value, for what it's worth.

 

[jvrenaudon]

original or restored

Whist not doubting the astonishing results taken from Scottsdale, let's not be too hasty with the conclusions to be drawn from them. It is worth remembering that there was probably one less enthusiastic buyer in the auction room for Lot 122 because he'd bought Lot 42 about 2 hours before. Auctioneers know a thing or two as wel, of course. Very interesting, all the same. John

 

[Peter Coomaraswamy]

Question

Regardless of "market value" which one would you prefer to drive? If you are like "Columbo" then the un-restored would be great, if you were like "Monk" you would want the restored one.. Of course if you were like McMillan and Wife a pink Prius would fit the bill.

 

[Carmen]

Originality is valued with cars that are rare and collectable. When cars are produced in strong numbers the value is driven by looks and how they drive. Even in the corvette world where originality brings strong value this holds true for the rare vehicles. For cars where many were made, an NCRS restoration can bring more value than a very clean survivor, unless it's rare, then the survivor wins every time.

Given the structural rust issues with e9s, few people believe you can find an unrestored car that doesn't need rust remediation and when done correctly it's just far more practical to own.

When I first started looking at these cars I was surprised that originality was not valued more, but I'm not complaining. I would rather drive this car with a 3.5L, 5 speed, LSD than the original drive train. I also like the comfort of knowing my fenders and rockers are clean because the car was restored vs. not knowing for sure because no one has removed the sound damping material yet.

 

[Stevehose]

What if you are Banacek? :razz:

Regardless of "market value" which one would you prefer to drive? If you are like "Columbo" then the un-restored would be great, if you were like "Monk" you would want the restored one.. Of course if you were like McMillan and Wife a pink Prius would fit the bill.

 

[twistinglane]

911 comparisons??

I'm sure someone here follows the Porsche market. What lessons are there from the classic - but not super rare Porsche models as far as originality versus optimal driver?

 

[rsporsche]

from what i've seen ... and i haven't followed it that close. with the porsche crowd, originality + authenticity wins. they pay crazy money for the red tipped antennas for the early 911's and the 356. and the prices for the original parts like wheels, etc ... its something that our group hasn't experienced for the same vintage of cars.

on another note, the early 911 was built to be put on a track without changing a whole bunch of stuff. as mentioned, getting an optimal bmw, at the same time period required some work. i'm not comparing either to new models ... just period models.

look at the standard '73 911t, e + s models ... an extremely original one can be in the csl to batmobile range. and they made a bunch of them. they also suffer the same rust issues as we do with the wonderful karmann dna tin worm

 

[sfdon]

We can thank Willy Brandt for the rust....
A little Ostpolitik and a little Stasi.
Never buy steel from the East Germans.

 

[twistinglane]

911 production volumes

I looked up 911 production for years overlapping the E9. As you may expect the numbers are not that small.

Now that doesn't mean that E9s and 911s should be equally collectable! But I'm thinkinking that E9s are uncommon enough that originality may given more of a premium if/as other classic car enthusiasts seek E9s.

Year Model Volume
1967-69 9115 5,056
1968-69 911T 6,318
1968 911L 11,610
1969 911E 2,826
1970-71 9117 15,082
1970-71 911E 4,927
1970-71 911S 4,691
1972-73 911T 16,933
1972-73 911E 4,406
1972-73 911S 5,094
1973 911 Carrera RS2.7 1,590
1974 911 Carrera RS3.0 109
1974-77 911 17,260
1974-77 911S 17,124
1974-75 911 Carrera 3,353
1974-77 911 Turbo 3,227
Source:http://www.porschemag.com/render.cfm?source=Op175~911_Production_volumes

 

[rsporsche]

i just glanced on ebay ...
there are some staggering numbers
69 - 911s - restored $185k
another 69 - 911e for 60k
65 - 911 for 80k and reserve not met
69 - 911s for 98k
73 - 911 targa for 62k and reserve not met
65 - 911 for 82k and reserve not met
66 - 911 garage find, some rust for 36k and reserve not met
68 - 911 targa (soft window) for 125k
68 - 911s targa for 138k
71 - 911t for 89k
70 - 911s for 149k
73 - 911 original -100k

and for comparison
72 - 911rs replica for 62k

check this one out that a friend just sent me - 32.8k for a rusty and not running 911
https://us-mg204.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?.partner=sbc&.rand=6in84cea3f2mk

i think you get the picture

 

[rsporsche]

and somebody paid 33k for this.

 

[mario1017]

original vs restored

1. I think it's important to consider that specific car you are talking about.
Gullwings and old SLs were always valuable to some degree.... so most people did restore the vehicles at some stage, hence there are more that have been restored vs original paint , interior , etc.

2. With an E9, these cars have had so many rust issues, there was talk about restoration when they were only 3-5 years old!
that makes an original car very rare. I have seen a handful that are original paint examples. I have an original car, and I won't do much to the drivetrain because of how original it is... even though I want to, to preserve it's appearance / value

3. How crazy are the purist of that particular model? *Insert Porsche owner joke here.

 

[rsporsche]

i think there are varying degrees to each part of the discussion.

original is original - if there is a vehicle with original everything - gold mine, something that has lived in a museum, or a bubble car

then there is the restored original, repainted same color, rebuilt original engine, replaced rubber parts, bushings + seals ... with no modifications to the vehicle's systems

then the restored, color changes or recreated

then the restomod

and it goes on and on ... but somewhere you find the falling apart, worn out, rusted out original ... just depends if its all still there, or if parts fell out thru the rusted holes. try to put a value on that

 

[Peter Coomaraswamy]

That's easy Steve,

What if you are Banacek? :razz:

If only Rock listened to his quote;
"A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn."

 

[E911]

rarity is relative...

one thing to remember about the demand side of the equation- while there may be a lot more early 911 cars (both produced and surviving) out there than E9's, there's probably an order of magnitude more 911 fanatics/collectors than their E9 counterparts.

I love my Coupe despite it's languishing comparative value and I love my P-cars for their insane valuation.