clutch not working when enginge is running

eltonjohan

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Hi,
I just solved a problem with the engine and now new trouble:
I have assembled a new clutch kit. When the engine is off everything seems to work fine; the clutch feels good, possible to put in gears etc. But when turning on the engine the clutch feels strange and not possible to put in the gears (just makes a terrible sound when the gear wheels are intefering). I can't find out what is the problem.
If my friend is pushing the car by hand with me in it I can put a gear in place and the car stops, when pushing the clutch its possible to push it again. So it seems to me that it should be ok, but as soon as the engine is turned on I'm proved wrong.

Anybody having a clue to solve it and I'm a happy man!
 

eltonjohan

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Hi,
I just solved a problem with the engine and now new trouble:
I have assembled a new clutch kit. When the engine is off everything seems to work fine; the clutch feels good, possible to put in gears etc. But when turning on the engine the clutch feels strange and not possible to put in the gears (just makes a terrible sound when the gear wheels are intefering). I can't find out what is the problem.
If my friend is pushing the car by hand with me in it I can put a gear in place and the car stops, when pushing the clutch its possible to push it again. So it seems to me that it should be ok, but as soon as the engine is turned on I'm proved wrong.

Anybody having a clue to solve it and I'm a happy man!
 

jhjacobs

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It sound like one of two things.

1. Your throwout bearing is not mating with the clutch properly. This could be due to the clutch pressure plate not being totally seated or a broken pressure plate spring.
2. The clutch slave cylinder is not pushing the arm enough to release the clutch. This could be because the slave is not fully seated, the clutch arm is not seated, or the throwout bearing is not clipped into the arm.

Could you describe the noise a bit more and when it happens? Do it sound like a gear tooth noise (indicating the clutch is not disengaging or does the noise happen simply when pushing the clutch (in neutral) which would imply a pressure plate problem.

:(
 

jhjacobs

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It sound like one of two things.

1. Your throwout bearing is not mating with the clutch properly. This could be due to the clutch pressure plate not being totally seated or a broken pressure plate spring.
2. The clutch slave cylinder is not pushing the arm enough to release the clutch. This could be because the slave is not fully seated, the clutch arm is not seated, or the throwout bearing is not clipped into the arm.

Could you describe the noise a bit more and when it happens? Do it sound like a gear tooth noise (indicating the clutch is not disengaging or does the noise happen simply when pushing the clutch (in neutral) which would imply a pressure plate problem.

:(
 

Malc

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It's possible that the arm come off the pivot point inside the bell housing.
or the "legs" on the bearing are not on the arm

Gearbox out time I suspect
 

Malc

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It's possible that the arm come off the pivot point inside the bell housing.
or the "legs" on the bearing are not on the arm

Gearbox out time I suspect
 

tochi

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eltonjohan said:
I have assembled a new clutch kit. When the engine is off everything seems to work fine; the clutch feels good, possible to put in gears etc. But when turning on the engine the clutch feels strange and not possible to put in the gears (just makes a terrible sound when the gear wheels are intefering). I can't find out what is the problem.

Assuming everything bolted up fine and the throwout bearing is properly on the release arm - it may be that you need to bleed or rebleed the system. You will not get full release arm extension with air in the system.

Before proceeding further, with engine off, get under the car and observe clutch engagement/disengagement while assistant depresses the clutch pedal. This should tell you right away if the issue is hydraulics or throwout bearing or release arm.

What others have mentioned makes good sense. But if clutch is not releasing, you will have problems shifting with engine running. Noise may be due to a lot of things. Did you r&r the bearings in the crankshaft (where the nose of the trans input shaft fits)? Was the throwout bearing lightly molygreased on both the interior and contact surface (where it meets the pressure plate fingers?

Good luck!
 

tochi

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eltonjohan said:
I have assembled a new clutch kit. When the engine is off everything seems to work fine; the clutch feels good, possible to put in gears etc. But when turning on the engine the clutch feels strange and not possible to put in the gears (just makes a terrible sound when the gear wheels are intefering). I can't find out what is the problem.

Assuming everything bolted up fine and the throwout bearing is properly on the release arm - it may be that you need to bleed or rebleed the system. You will not get full release arm extension with air in the system.

Before proceeding further, with engine off, get under the car and observe clutch engagement/disengagement while assistant depresses the clutch pedal. This should tell you right away if the issue is hydraulics or throwout bearing or release arm.

What others have mentioned makes good sense. But if clutch is not releasing, you will have problems shifting with engine running. Noise may be due to a lot of things. Did you r&r the bearings in the crankshaft (where the nose of the trans input shaft fits)? Was the throwout bearing lightly molygreased on both the interior and contact surface (where it meets the pressure plate fingers?

Good luck!
 

eltonjohan

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I got under the car observing the clutch/release arm. It is pushing the pressure plate release levers, but I don't know if it should push it even further. I think it looks ok though.
The throwout bearing was greased on the interior surface but not on the contact surface to the pressure plate.
I only bleeded the system with the engine off. Is it necessary to do it with engine on as well? What is the difference? The clutch feels different when the engine is running.
The noise from when trying to put a gear in place must be gear tooth noise.

tochi -> does "r&r the bearings in the crankshaft " mean if I have replaced them (not that good with english short terms)? I have only replaced the oil seal for the crankshaft.

cheers
 

eltonjohan

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I got under the car observing the clutch/release arm. It is pushing the pressure plate release levers, but I don't know if it should push it even further. I think it looks ok though.
The throwout bearing was greased on the interior surface but not on the contact surface to the pressure plate.
I only bleeded the system with the engine off. Is it necessary to do it with engine on as well? What is the difference? The clutch feels different when the engine is running.
The noise from when trying to put a gear in place must be gear tooth noise.

tochi -> does "r&r the bearings in the crankshaft " mean if I have replaced them (not that good with english short terms)? I have only replaced the oil seal for the crankshaft.

cheers
 

eltonjohan

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two tings came up to my mind now:
1) I felt that the incoming axle to the gear box had a little play. Can't recall if it was like this when the gearbox was removed or if I have damaged anything.
2) Is it possible that the clutch pedal travel must be adjusted after putting on new clutch?
 

eltonjohan

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two tings came up to my mind now:
1) I felt that the incoming axle to the gear box had a little play. Can't recall if it was like this when the gearbox was removed or if I have damaged anything.
2) Is it possible that the clutch pedal travel must be adjusted after putting on new clutch?
 

bengal taiga

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eltonjohan said:
I got under the car observing the clutch/release arm. It is pushing the pressure plate release levers, but I don't know if it should push it even further. I think it looks ok though.

I only bleeded the system with the engine off. Is it necessary to do it with engine on as well? What is the difference? The clutch feels different when the engine is running. The noise from when trying to put a gear in place must be gear tooth noise.

tochi -> does "r&r the bearings in the crankshaft " mean if I have replaced them (not that good with english short terms)? I have only replaced the oil seal for the crankshaft. cheers

You should be able to measure the movement of the throwout arm at the slave cylinder. When clutch parts are new, the movement should be 17-19 mm. If less than 5 mm, clutch pressure plate or disk need replacement. On the hydraulic clutch, there really isn't much room for adjustment, short of replacing worn parts, such as the naturally wearing clutch disc. The pushrod that is attached to the clutch pedal can be lengthened or shortened. I would guess the pushrod length could permit more compression of the master cylinder and more slave cylinder pushrod travel too. Unfortunately, at present, I do not have any specifications to offer in this regard. But, if you think the clutch is not fully disengaging, its worth pursuing. Another thought is that the slave cylinder pushrod is severely mushroomed or that the area it contacts on the release arm is severely worn. I guess if either part goes without grease for 30 years, its possible.

The clutch hydraulics should work independent of the engine and thus, I can't see why you would need the engine running to bleed the clutch. Be advised that BMW recommends pressure bleeding the reservoir rather than using the old pump the clutch pedal method. Whether this is critical on new parts is the subject of some debate. Besides, you should be able to tell the difference between a hard firm pedal and one that is mushy.

"R&R" generally refers to remove and repair or remove and replace. The nose of the transmission input shaft fits snuggly into the end of the crankshaft. On the M30 engines, the tail of the crankshaft contains inset bearings. At a minimum, these should be greased to insure smooth input shaft rotation. Because of the difficulty at removal, many just replace the bearing/s as part of any clutch work. If the bearing/s is/are worn or not well lubricated, this may result in your being unable to disengage the clutch and shift gears. It can ALSO result in noise.

As others have suggested some parts can break from first use. There are springs contained in the clutch disk that operate to dampen vibration and make clutch operation smooth. Racing clutches do not typically use these. Although they should not break, it has happened. This can result in noise, imbalance and damage to surrounding parts. I have not really given this much thought, but I wonder out loud if it is possible to install the same driven plate incorrectly so that things outwardly bolt up, but the clutch fails to work properly. Lastly, the friction material is held to the driven plate by rivets and the pressure plate has rivets too. I guess anything is possible, so maybe you have a loose rivet or too.

Having said all of this, I hope your problem is nothing more than a clutch than needs bleeding or a clutch pushrod that needs adjusting.
 

bengal taiga

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eltonjohan said:
I got under the car observing the clutch/release arm. It is pushing the pressure plate release levers, but I don't know if it should push it even further. I think it looks ok though.

I only bleeded the system with the engine off. Is it necessary to do it with engine on as well? What is the difference? The clutch feels different when the engine is running. The noise from when trying to put a gear in place must be gear tooth noise.

tochi -> does "r&r the bearings in the crankshaft " mean if I have replaced them (not that good with english short terms)? I have only replaced the oil seal for the crankshaft. cheers

You should be able to measure the movement of the throwout arm at the slave cylinder. When clutch parts are new, the movement should be 17-19 mm. If less than 5 mm, clutch pressure plate or disk need replacement. On the hydraulic clutch, there really isn't much room for adjustment, short of replacing worn parts, such as the naturally wearing clutch disc. The pushrod that is attached to the clutch pedal can be lengthened or shortened. I would guess the pushrod length could permit more compression of the master cylinder and more slave cylinder pushrod travel too. Unfortunately, at present, I do not have any specifications to offer in this regard. But, if you think the clutch is not fully disengaging, its worth pursuing. Another thought is that the slave cylinder pushrod is severely mushroomed or that the area it contacts on the release arm is severely worn. I guess if either part goes without grease for 30 years, its possible.

The clutch hydraulics should work independent of the engine and thus, I can't see why you would need the engine running to bleed the clutch. Be advised that BMW recommends pressure bleeding the reservoir rather than using the old pump the clutch pedal method. Whether this is critical on new parts is the subject of some debate. Besides, you should be able to tell the difference between a hard firm pedal and one that is mushy.

"R&R" generally refers to remove and repair or remove and replace. The nose of the transmission input shaft fits snuggly into the end of the crankshaft. On the M30 engines, the tail of the crankshaft contains inset bearings. At a minimum, these should be greased to insure smooth input shaft rotation. Because of the difficulty at removal, many just replace the bearing/s as part of any clutch work. If the bearing/s is/are worn or not well lubricated, this may result in your being unable to disengage the clutch and shift gears. It can ALSO result in noise.

As others have suggested some parts can break from first use. There are springs contained in the clutch disk that operate to dampen vibration and make clutch operation smooth. Racing clutches do not typically use these. Although they should not break, it has happened. This can result in noise, imbalance and damage to surrounding parts. I have not really given this much thought, but I wonder out loud if it is possible to install the same driven plate incorrectly so that things outwardly bolt up, but the clutch fails to work properly. Lastly, the friction material is held to the driven plate by rivets and the pressure plate has rivets too. I guess anything is possible, so maybe you have a loose rivet or too.

Having said all of this, I hope your problem is nothing more than a clutch than needs bleeding or a clutch pushrod that needs adjusting.
 

dang

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Wow, its been way too long since I've worked on a transmission like that, which is a good thing I guess. Are you absolutely sure that all the parts were assembled correctly? Not working is one thing, but not working and making funny noises (and feeling strange) is something else. I'm leaning toward others who suggest maybe the release bearing arm, disc, or something mechanically wrong going on. I can't remember, can the disc be put in backward on one of these setups? I'm thinking not, but thought I'd mention it. How about pivot point bushings for the release bearing arm? A little play in the input shaft is normal (pilot bearing holds it in place).

Dan
 

dang

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Wow, its been way too long since I've worked on a transmission like that, which is a good thing I guess. Are you absolutely sure that all the parts were assembled correctly? Not working is one thing, but not working and making funny noises (and feeling strange) is something else. I'm leaning toward others who suggest maybe the release bearing arm, disc, or something mechanically wrong going on. I can't remember, can the disc be put in backward on one of these setups? I'm thinking not, but thought I'd mention it. How about pivot point bushings for the release bearing arm? A little play in the input shaft is normal (pilot bearing holds it in place).

Dan
 

gazzol

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The symptoms you describe are atributed to one thing, the pressure plate is not disengaging from the friction plate fully. The reason for this could be any one of the reasons posted above, another reason could be the incorrect clutch kit may have been fitted. The friction plates will cross over but the pressure plates and release bearings are different from different models (not sure exactly why). So in theory you could install a new clutch and have clearance issues.
Having said that sometimes after installing a new clutch at the workshop (modern vehicles) I've encountered clearance problems and the answer (assuming no air in the system) is simply to pump the pedal repeatedly for about 10 minutes and everything is back as it should be. I can't explain why this but it is worth trying.
 

gazzol

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The symptoms you describe are atributed to one thing, the pressure plate is not disengaging from the friction plate fully. The reason for this could be any one of the reasons posted above, another reason could be the incorrect clutch kit may have been fitted. The friction plates will cross over but the pressure plates and release bearings are different from different models (not sure exactly why). So in theory you could install a new clutch and have clearance issues.
Having said that sometimes after installing a new clutch at the workshop (modern vehicles) I've encountered clearance problems and the answer (assuming no air in the system) is simply to pump the pedal repeatedly for about 10 minutes and everything is back as it should be. I can't explain why this but it is worth trying.
 

eltonjohan

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Thanks once again for all pieces of advice! This is a great forum.

Yesterday I swopped the gear box to another similar one I have.
Everything looked fine when removing the old gear box so I cant' figure out why it didn't work...
Anyway, after swapping the gear box it was possible to put the gears in while engine running (the clutch still feels different when the enginge is running though, strange). Only problems with reverse gear. Maybe the new clutch kit need to be driven some miles before working properly..?
 

eltonjohan

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Thanks once again for all pieces of advice! This is a great forum.

Yesterday I swopped the gear box to another similar one I have.
Everything looked fine when removing the old gear box so I cant' figure out why it didn't work...
Anyway, after swapping the gear box it was possible to put the gears in while engine running (the clutch still feels different when the enginge is running though, strange). Only problems with reverse gear. Maybe the new clutch kit need to be driven some miles before working properly..?
 
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