Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England
I am going to play devils advocate here - just spice things up, and I am not affiliated with the seller.

In the UK TV series Only Fools and Horses, one of the characters, Trigger, says that he has had the same broom for 20 years. He goes on to say that it has had 14 replacement heads and 17 replacement handles, but he maintains it is the same broom.

Well what if I bought my car but replaced the doors, most of the floor, the sills (rockers) seats, engine, gearbox/diff (soon), carpets, electrics et al then this is the same thing. When does it stop becoming my original car and I get accused of fraud when trying to sell it as an original car. There is no percentage rule on when it is no longer the same car.

Is a CSL worth so much more than a standard CS or CSi in real terms. Yes it is lighter and has more exotic material in it, but it probably has less than the standard car in the way of comfort. It is worth more because they are rare and limited. This rarity is measured by the fact that the owner has the VIN, Chassis number, and the V5 document to prove it.

So..........someone buys this package, comes up with the donor car, goes to the expense of making it pristine and everything apart from the matching engine number appears correct. It will not be cloned, and will be unique and obviously, rare. What is so wrong with this. There is little difference to finding an absolutely dreadful condition CSL and having to replace virtually everything.

My view is simple - the market is determining the price of these cars so if another one is brought back from the dead then so be it. I think perhaps that the seller is profiteering but so what. It is the market that allows this.

Ok, you can call my view radical, but lets float this view for discussion.
 

Stan

Well-Known Member
Site Donor $$
Messages
7,005
Reaction score
1,526
Location
Newmarket, New Hampshire
The car as you described would be worth quite a bit but arguably less than a CSL "time capsule" build as a CSL by BMW.
This is where provenance plays in. The car you describe would be every bit as nice, maybe even better than a new one was in the 1970's. Many would be delighted to own it. There are others who would eschew this car in favor of the "real" CSL even if that car has some patina.
 

teahead

aka "Rob"
Site Donor $
Messages
6,392
Reaction score
1,848
Location
Tacoma, WA, USA
Anytime you cut/transplant VINs and/or body numbers to another car that previously had a different set of VINs or body numbers, that's an illegal re-body.

If you're replacing practically everything on your rotten body except VINs/body numbers, that's a LEGAL re-body per se.
 

Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England
Scientists in Scotland cloned a sheep from another sheep cell. It was built from the merest spec of a sheep but the result was a sheep, which nobody denied.

The market creates values and this is an opportunity - isn't it? I wouldn't pay what he is asking, but hey - the end result is a valuable car.

Please bear in mind I am playing devils advocate and for that to work - there has to be some anti-devils.
 

pat cooks

Well-Known Member
Messages
220
Reaction score
92
Location
essex
"It is a white CSL number 63 of 500 RHD Cars made." does that not tell us the vin?
 

afishe

Well-Known Member
Site Donor
Messages
112
Reaction score
54
Location
New Zealand
to take a slight tangent into the absurd... what if I buy the CSL vin and rebuild my CSA as original using all CSA parts (auto box, badging, interior etc) but weld in the CSL stamp and vin plate and register it as a CSL? Is it a CSL or a CSA? What if I then put all my genuine CSL body parts on it? - is it a CSA or a CSL then? What if I took the vin plate etc from my CSA and put it on my CSL shell - is that a CSA shell now? (remember - the alloy panels are on the CSA). I now have my own spare CSL vin plate and papers - should get 30 grand for them... Might as well chuck my CSL engine in the re vined CSA - it now has non matching body and engine numbers but both numbers are genuine CSL - have i created a 'super CSL'? Or....
 

Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England
The car as you described would be worth quite a bit but arguably less than a CSL "time capsule" build as a CSL by BMW.
This is where provenance plays in. The car you describe would be every bit as nice, maybe even better than a new one was in the 1970's. Many would be delighted to own it. There are others who would eschew this car in favor of the "real" CSL even if that car has some patina.

I agree heartily with this. It should not be worth as much because of its lesser provenance, but is it still a CSL? I would contend yes. So long as the restorer is responsible with the description, then no harm is done. However, I don't think responsibility is what the seller might have in mind.

My contention is that instead of torches and pitchforks, we can alert future buyers of the provenance, but I don't think its fraud. A useful entry on the register should inform, but not indicate fraud.
 

Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England
to take a slight tangent into the absurd... what if I buy the CSL vin and rebuild my CSA as original using all CSA parts (auto box, badging, interior etc) but weld in the CSL stamp and vin plate and register it as a CSL? Is it a CSL or a CSA? What if I then put all my genuine CSL body parts on it? - is it a CSA or a CSL then? What if I took the vin plate etc from my CSA and put it on my CSL shell - is that a CSA shell now? (remember - the alloy panels are on the CSA). I now have my own spare CSL vin plate and papers - should get 30 grand for them... Might as well chuck my CSL engine in the re vined CSA - it now has non matching body and engine numbers but both numbers are genuine CSL - have i created a 'super CSL'? Or....

If , if and if. I think you are correct in your assertion but I don't think rebadging a CSA as a CSL is such a good idea. I am minded of a comment by an old colleague on the word if, "IF my Aunt had b**ls she would be my Uncle"
 

Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England

nosmonkey

In Rust We Trust
Site Donor
Messages
1,103
Reaction score
1,002
Location
London, UK
It's more a case of this isn't a CSL that is rotten and is being sold for restoration that can be fixed, it's more the fact the seller is quite clearly selling something for the sole purpose of inflating the value of one vehicle by pretending it is another. That is fraudulent plain and simple. My Cs, fully done up may only be worth 30/40k, if I was to slap these tags on and then claim it was a CSL to the untrained eye it is now a 100k plus car.
 

dp

Well-Known Member
Site Donor
Messages
1,110
Reaction score
166
Location
US
some day....

someone will say....

"who knows of this car"
 

2275066

Member
Messages
22
Reaction score
4
For me, it is clear that a CSL needs to be born as a CSL, the shell built at Karman with the proper panels and proper vin tag and stamping on the shell. Everything else does not qualify.
I have started to register the dead CSLs in the CSL public registry at http://www.lezebre.eu/car/bmw 30 csl/photo gallery bmw 30 csl voiture 900.htm
I do not have a lot of cars listed yet because unfortunately as with people, the deads do not speak. But this trail of communication is excellent.
Question: how do you know that the eBay listing is for 2285063? Did anybody ask the seller? Thanks.
 

Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England
So there may be many cars out there that went through the process envisaged by the clone parts seller and nobody would know. There must have been more dead CSL's than we know about. What will be the difference between these and the one under discussion.

Furthermore, if the workmanship and component quality is such that it matches or even surpasses that of a Karman built car, the why isn't it a valid example of a CSL. It would have to match the precise specifications of a CSL which might not be feasible.

None of the comments so far respond to the logic of Triggers Broom in my first post.

Whether it is fraud is up for legal debate by minds who command logic better than I. Similarly, whether it counts as one is down to personal opinion.

I have a view that in the art world, a good forger who produces a replica that fools experts might not stop at producing only one. This seller must put a big question mark over existing CSL's in that the VIN and documented history just might not be enough.

Enough of devils advocate. I think the seller is a lazy chancer who doesn't want to do the forging himself. I think the car should therefore be tainted and he should not get so much for the cloning kit. A suitable comment on the registry should be enough.
 

Markos

Well-Known Member
Site Donor
Messages
13,369
Reaction score
7,503
Location
Seattle, WA
So there may be many cars out there that went through the process envisaged by the clone parts seller and nobody would know. There must have been more dead CSL's than we know about. What will be the difference between these and the one under discussion.

Furthermore, if the workmanship and component quality is such that it matches or even surpasses that of a Karman built car, the why isn't it a valid example of a CSL. It would have to match the precise specifications of a CSL which might not be feasible.

None of the comments so far respond to the logic of Triggers Broom in my first post.

Whether it is fraud is up for legal debate by minds who command logic better than I. Similarly, whether it counts as one is down to personal opinion.

I have a view that in the art world, a good forger who produces a replica that fools experts might not stop at producing only one. This seller must put a big question mark over existing CSL's in that the VIN and documented history just might not be enough.

Enough of devils advocate. I think the seller is a lazy chancer who doesn't want to do the forging himself. I think the car should therefore be tainted and he should not get so much for the cloning kit. A suitable comment on the registry should be enough.

You can play Devil’s advocate all you want but there is only one legally correct answer, no matter how nice the finished product may be.
 

dp

Well-Known Member
Site Donor
Messages
1,110
Reaction score
166
Location
US
a good forger who produces a replica that fools experts might not stop at producing only one.

Enough of the devil's advocate nonsense, all it really does is illustrate that the web has its share of "experts" who just "might be fooled."

Rabid, pumped up enthusiasts are the easiest "investors" to dupe. Caveat emptor

-30-
 

sandhu

Well-Known Member
Site Donor $
Messages
1,134
Reaction score
408
Location
England, UK
For me, it is clear that a CSL needs to be born as a CSL, the shell built at Karman with the proper panels and proper vin tag and stamping on the shell. Everything else does not qualify.
I have started to register the dead CSLs in the CSL public registry at http://www.lezebre.eu/car/bmw 30 csl/photo gallery bmw 30 csl voiture 900.htm
I do not have a lot of cars listed yet because unfortunately as with people, the deads do not speak. But this trail of communication is excellent.
Question: how do you know that the eBay listing is for 2285063? Did anybody ask the seller? Thanks.


My database says RHD Csl 063 was dismantled in the early 1980’ tees . Shell was scraped, and parts sold !!!
 

Rek

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,117
Reaction score
355
Location
Islington London England
Enough of the devil's advocate nonsense, all it really does is illustrate that the web has its share of "experts" who just "might be fooled."

Rabid, pumped up enthusiasts are the easiest "investors" to dupe. Caveat emptor

-30-

It would be boring if everyone agreed on everything - i like to keep things interesting :)
 

nosmonkey

In Rust We Trust
Site Donor
Messages
1,103
Reaction score
1,002
Location
London, UK
I am going to play devils advocate here - just spice things up, and I am not affiliated with the seller.

In the UK TV series Only Fools and Horses, one of the characters, Trigger, says that he has had the same broom for 20 years. He goes on to say that it has had 14 replacement heads and 17 replacement handles, but he maintains it is the same broom.

Oh boy, what do I win?

Jxj4Lc7.jpg
 
Top