Help me out guys.. City Pack advice

Wes

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Guys,

Need some advice/guidance as something a little unexpected has come across my desk.

I've been offered a 1972 CSL (have the vin if helps) here in Australia.
It appears it's not a matching numbers car and has been in storage for some time and is a City Pack version.
Looks like nearly all of the essential CSL bits are there, wheels, seats, aluminium panels etc.
Based on initial photos she doesn't seem too bad in terms of rust but the car will need significant work - I'm told she runs though.
The owner isn't in the market to sell per se but has a lot of other projects on and is aware of what I've been doing with my CS.

It's presently running a 1972 csi motor ( basically the correct motor apart from the engine number).

I don't think they are asking crazy money for it but it's not cheap.
My concern is around the value of the car given the non-matching numbers and the potential cost(s) of restoration.
Depending on a couple of things I'm considering jumping on a plane to go and take a look as the next step.

What are our thoughts on the fact it's probably a non-matching numbers car but still running a period correct engine - but still carries all of the other CSL bits?

Before you all ask, yes I've some pictures but a little reluctant to share as I don't want to breach the trust of the present owner.

PS: If any member even tries to mow my lawn I will hunt you down- in addition to putting a curse on your children and grandchildren - and you know how nuts Australians are :)

W.
 

Markos

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Ask yourself what purchase (price + $4ok) * .75 comes out to. How does that compare to the two year listings in OZ?
 

Simufly

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If you are buying as an investment, probably no. So it all comes down to if you like the car and want it just for enjoyment then yes.
I personally can not see the premium of having a matching numbers car although I accept that the market does. If the engine is period correct, what is the problem? Cars with 5speed boxes (which AFAIK were never offered by BMW) command a premium so where is the logic in that?
I assume it is RHD?
Buy with your heart not your head, it is Christmas, go on you deserve it!
Simon
 

Wes

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If you are buying as an investment, probably no. So it all comes down to if you like the car and want it just for enjoyment then yes.
I personally can not see the premium of having a matching numbers car although I accept that the market does. If the engine is period correct, what is the problem? Cars with 5speed boxes (which AFAIK were never offered by BMW) command a premium so where is the logic in that?
I assume it is RHD?
Buy with your heart not your head, it is Christmas, go on you deserve it!
Simon
Yes it's RHD. Not sure if 4 or 5 speed as I haven't kicked the tyres yet.
I'm already getting my Ceylon CS back for Christmas so this is just being greedy.
Mind unpacking why you don't think it would be a good investment?
 

Wes

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Ask yourself what purchase (price + $4ok) * .75 comes out to. How does that compare to the two year listings in OZ?
The price 'as is' less than a third of the price the two CSL's are advertised for out here.
There is also a load of spare parts, ranging from boot, bonnet, steering column, breaks and boxes of other stuff.
 

Marco 54

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Hi Wes

Love your CS - well done on a fabulous job.

In response to your query I can confirm that there is a CSL City Pack 'project' currently for sale in UK at £59,000+.
In 2016 two CSL project cars were auctioned at £53,00 and £64,000 (see www.glenmarch.com).

If you are thinking of a full nuts and bolts restoration then the cost would of course depend upon the extent to which you can become involved.

I think the restoration of a CSL can be a trap, as in order to be worth a premium price everything has to be absolutely authentic and appropriately documented.
As has been said on the Forum many times before, one difficulty is the unavailability of many new parts.
In consequence the number of available NOS or decent secondhand parts is also dwindling.

BMW Classic is a major disappointment - there is very little available and the website does not even recognise BMW's own VINs!

Good luck.

Marco54
 

Wes

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Hi Wes

Love your CS - well done on a fabulous job.

In response to your query I can confirm that there is a CSL City Pack 'project' currently for sale in UK at £59,000+.
In 2016 two CSL project cars were auctioned at £53,00 and £64,000 (see www.glenmarch.com).

If you are thinking of a full nuts and bolts restoration then the cost would of course depend upon the extent to which you can become involved.

I think the restoration of a CSL can be a trap, as in order to be worth a premium price everything has to be absolutely authentic and appropriately documented.
As has been said on the Forum many times before, one difficulty is the unavailability of many new parts.
In consequence the number of available NOS or decent secondhand parts is also dwindling.

BMW Classic is a major disappointment - there is very little available and the website does not even recognise BMW's own VINs!

Good luck.

Marco54

These are all good points.
Based on the UK prices you quote the one here is slightly cheaper, with an added bonus it's actually in Australia but 3hrs flying time from me.
Depending on how a couple of things pan out I'll probably fly up and look it over personally early in the new year.
 

oneills

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I can do that :)
If your heart says "yes!" go for it. You can get your money back and a bit more just by sitting on it for a year. If you let it slip away you may find yourself slapping your forehead every day. A buddy and I bought a 75 CSi, all original true Barn Find. A parts car from the get go.

We took what we needed, injection, bumpers the important bits, lots of other less important bits. Then we sold all that remained at better than fair prices to help the less fortunate. Parts that rarely come on the market like the tail light assembly with the euro fog light. It will never happen to us again and can't imagine how we would feel if we had turned it down.

Steve
 

Wes

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If your heart says "yes!" go for it. You can get your money back and a bit more just by sitting on it for a year. If you let it slip away you may find yourself slapping your forehead every day. A buddy and I bought a 75 CSi, all original true Barn Find. A parts car from the get go.

We took what we needed, injection, bumpers the important bits, lots of other less important bits. Then we sold all that remained at better than fair prices to help the less fortunate. Parts that rarely come on the market like the tail light assembly with the euro fog light. It will never happen to us again and can't imagine how we would feel if we had turned it down.

Steve
This is kind of where my head is at.
Another important factor is that there a very few CSL's in Australia. On top of that if I were to import one from the UK, even unrestored I'd be up for a small fortune on shipping, VAT, duty and the luxury car import tax we have. Depending on the car this could be 40k (UK pounds). If I bought a car here I'd save that 'dead' money and could throw it straight at the car's restoration.
 

Boobouna

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Well what can I say. Another option is to finish the Ceylon resto and sell it. With the money from that you can pay for most of the resto on the CSL. If money is no issue than keep them both.


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Belgiumbarry

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depends also on what you want to do with the car ? if you buy it ( still alot of money ) and put the Ceylon resto value in restoring it.... will you still enjoy the CSL ? or a garage queen investment ?
yeah, if money is not a issue …. we can buy everything. :)
 

Wes

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Thought I should post an update.
I'm on a plane in the morning to fly basically from one side of Australia to the other to go and look at the car.
The vendor seems like a straight up nice guy but not a BMW bloke so he's answered my questions the best he can and supplied pictures and documents for everything I've requested.
No idea how it's going to go when I get there but am now in a position to make an offer on the spot if I choose to.
That said, I've a fair idea now of what the car is like but still unsure it's matching numbers or not - depending on the price I think this needs to be a factor.
It's not like I'm desperate to buy an E9 as I feel blessed with what I already have but how often does an unrestored CSL come up.

So I throw it back to my friends on here.
If not a matching numbers (and I don't know either way) how much of a haircut does the value take.
If not a matching car but running an otherwise original csi motor then the value as a minimum should be north of a 3.0 csi if logic follows given it has all the other CSL bits.
Not interested in a garage queen restoration if I got it would take a similar approach to my CS where it looks stunning, all original but the main game is driving it on the weekend.

Perhaps I should just have a few red wines on the 5 hours I'm in transit and make my mind up then - can't go wrong can it?
 

Mal CSL 3.0

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Hi Wes,

With your skill, no doublt you could create another masterpiece.

I can see it now....a gleaming, restored Chamoix CSL with the BMW Motorsport tri- colour stripes. The most iconic CSL of them all...... (If it’s the one I know is for sale, it’s Chamonix?).

I think if you can get it for a good price, you can’t really lose. And as long as it’s not too far gone rust wise or missing too many parts.

Once restored, at the end of the day it might not be a Aus $350k marching numbers CSL like the red one for sale at a prestigious Syd dealer, or the silver one in QLD. However I still think for such an iconic coloured Chamonix CSL, and if you restore it well, it could easily be a $200k+ CSL. (I estimate if you put 2 exact same spec, same colour, same condition restored CSLs side by side, a matching number CSL may be worth +25% more and also have a wider buyer appeal, but that’s only a consideration if you want to sell in future. The last non matching CSL sold in Aus $163k at auction in early 2017 and was a little rough around the edges)

So depends if the maths works out. Purchase price + resto cost. And considering you do a lot yourself, probably a feasible proposition.
 
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Boobouna

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Thought I should post an update.
I'm on a plane in the morning to fly basically from one side of Australia to the other to go and look at the car.
The vendor seems like a straight up nice guy but not a BMW bloke so he's answered my questions the best he can and supplied pictures and documents for everything I've requested.
No idea how it's going to go when I get there but am now in a position to make an offer on the spot if I choose to.
That said, I've a fair idea now of what the car is like but still unsure it's matching numbers or not - depending on the price I think this needs to be a factor.
It's not like I'm desperate to buy an E9 as I feel blessed with what I already have but how often does an unrestored CSL come up.

So I throw it back to my friends on here.
If not a matching numbers (and I don't know either way) how much of a haircut does the value take.
If not a matching car but running an otherwise original csi motor then the value as a minimum should be north of a 3.0 csi if logic follows given it has all the other CSL bits.
Not interested in a garage queen restoration if I got it would take a similar approach to my CS where it looks stunning, all original but the main game is driving it on the weekend.

Perhaps I should just have a few red wines on the 5 hours I'm in transit and make my mind up then - can't go wrong can it?
I assume you are referring to this one? Without seeing it in the flesh it’s hard to know but the pics don’t look the best, and at the advertised price of £75k looks overpriced especially considering there are older restoration UK CSL’s in excellent condition for sale at £99k. But if you didn’t want an already sorted turn key CSL, and prefer to restore one then this one should be ok. But that price seems a bit rich. There was one recently in QLD that was a solid complete numbers matching running car for sale for $120k. Cheaper than this one and twice as good. Think it has sold now though.




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Wes

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I assume you are referring to this one? Without seeing it in the flesh it’s hard to know but the pics don’t look the best, and at the advertised price of £75k looks overpriced especially considering there are older restoration UK CSL’s in excellent condition for sale at £99k. But if you didn’t want an already sorted turn key CSL, and prefer to restore one then this one should be ok. But that price seems a bit rich. There was one recently in QLD that was a solid complete numbers matching running car for sale for $120k. Cheaper than this one and twice as good. Think it has sold now though.




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That's the one.
 

Markos

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The windshield is taped up. That means water is getting in. Have a good look at the upper firewall with the glove box (edit: fuse box - RHD) open. check out the “fender box” from inside the wheel well. You can stick your phone in there with the flash on and take pictures. After the picture checks out, would actually feel around in there with rubber gloves on. I’ve heard that Australia has more than a few poisonous spiders.
 
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