Lets talk oil.

deQuincey

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geneally speaking i agree that oil can be a sort of emotional purchase for us, so Tierfreund point is sound

one of the most stupid things that i have seen is a circle in the bottle in which they represent a rough and a smooth surface in a "touch me/feel me" version, claiming that their oil is the one that produces the smooth surface effect

the most important problem is that the guys in the oil industry treat us like idiots not telling us about the detailed components in their products

as per luisA. article it is clear that in any chemical product there is usually combination of different chemical products that may have contrary effects, it is supposed that an oil company should handle these components in a sort of equilibrium,

for me the worst point is to add a third or fourth component without knowing the effects of that combination

more is not better
 

kasbatts

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Oh yes, please. Another oil thread! :)

Short but unpopular because much too simple answer: the M30 is a relatively modern construction (hard to believe as it dates from 67-68 ).
Still:
Go synthetic (don´t worry, all that "too thin and it´ll leak and all that" is BS).
Use 0w40 or 10W60.
Don´t use 0w30, that´s for more modern motors.
Forget about "Classic Oil". Might as well call them Snake Oil. Most profitable product oil companies make: Cheapest imagnineable stuff in a pretty can.

Oil (especially modern synthetic) is so much better today than in the 60s and the oil filter in the M30 is pretty effective: Go for 10.000mls change intervalls on full synthetic. Even 15.000mls would do no harm.

Forget all additives. Good oil has plenty and finely matched to each other. Additional additives are like vitamin pills. Only americans believe in them. Do little harm but absolutely no good. Most gets pissed away.

Do not warm the engine by leaving it to idle. Start the engine, wait 3-4 seconds for full oil pressure and drive off.
Drive it gently (no full throttle and no more than 2500rpm) until the oil has warmed.
Install an oil temp gauge.

Once you get the oil to at least 70deg Celcius: go for it.

Stop worrying.

Drive it hard and have fun.


+1
 

kasbatts

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BTW

I used this stuff in my race car for 6 years straight and never ever had a problem.

http://drbritton.co.nz/valvoline/passenger-car-motor-oils/synpower/synpower-5w-40.html

The engine was a 1970's 1500cc era push rod Toyota 4 cly that made approx 3 times the power it did standard (approx 150hp at 7500rpm)

No roller rockers, no fancy con rods, nothing, all standard Toyota bits just balanced and blue printed.

My point is, old Motor technology (like the M30) delivering a lot more power under far more extreme circumstances on modern oil, and never missed a beat! EVER.
 

Nicad

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I bought a used endurance race car in 1994. It was a 1992 VR6 Corrado that had seen 2 seasons of the Michelin Endurance series. It had 13,000 track Km on it at the time running 5w30 Mobi 1. They opened the motor up when I bought it to have a look and it looked new (cylinder bores). They put new rings and head gasket and I drove it hard till it was stolen with 60,000 km. never drank any oil and ran very fast.

Quite amazing how hard you can run an engine if maintained.

(I also have a friend who put 60,000 km on his minivan without changing the oil and it ran pretty good while he owned it. )
 

Arde

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I had a great engineering mentor back on Long Island, we jointly owned a 77 633CSi, and by then he taught me a lesson he learned on oil changes. He had owned a Dodge Dart and he did not do any oil changes, he just added fresh oil as needed assuming the new oil would dilute the old one and thus keep things lubricated.

Unfortunately I am running to a meeting at work and will have to tell you later what happened to the Dodge Dart. Be right back.
 

Arde

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Oh, yes the Dart. It run for many years with no oil changes. It was presumably an indestructible engine, and then one day the engine exploded and my mentor became a believer in oil changes.
 

Stevehose

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Was this Legs Akimbo?

Oh, yes the Dart. It run for many years with no oil changes. It was presumably an indestructible engine, and then one day the engine exploded and my mentor became a believer in oil changes.
 

Arde

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Was this Legs Akimbo?

I am serious, the engine blew up with a big bang. A scientific answer to the oil change question.

The only explosion in Legs Akimbo's past was when he went camping and left a can of peas in the fireplace. True story. The noise was much less than the Dart engine, but fireplaces have this captivating effect where people cannot take their eyes off the fire. Or take the peas off their eyes after the can explodes.
 

Stefan

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Still running with original type of mineral oil (but better quality) with no oil drops on garage floor ever.
 

lloyd

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For those fretting about reduced ZDDP in their M30's oil diet, do you have any personal experience with wear directly caused by the lack of this additive?



In my own experience the ZDDP additive is most significant when running in a new cam to prevent spalling. Fortunately, the metal used in BMW's cams is typically very hard and their nitriding treatment very good. It is not perfect though. Warranty repairs may not have been common, but they have been known to exist. (What constitutes an acceptable percentage of failure is usually a closely guarded secret for obvious reasons. Anybody remember "Nikasil?")

Tierfreund's comments are not out of the ordinary and whether he knows it or not, the synthetic oil he is using likely contains more-than-adequate ZDDP to deter significant wear. This moots most of the ZDDP debate for anyone with reasonable access to 0W60 weight oil or similar.

I would bet that virtually any currently available 0W60 branded motor oil meets or exceeds virtually every contemporary high performance engine manufacturer's recommendations. (Of course that excludes those manufacturers who specifically recommend lighter weight oils for their engines specifically designed to use those oils - for a variety of reasons. To the best of my knowledge, the M30 plant was never designed to run on lighter viscosity oils.) I would also assume that the 0W60 synthetic stock Tierfreund uses could satisfy most/all of Maranello's typically stringent requirements, e.g., withstanding 80+psi at 8,000+ rpm at ~200+F for sustained periods (hours and hours).

I have not made an exhaustive study of the subject, but, buy and large, most of the heavier viscosity oils produced for the North American market have not suffered the the reduced ZDDP levels that occurred in the lighter weight offerings. As evidence, compare Mobil1's "2014" oil spec chart: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf With respect to my European friends, I am admittedly ignorant as to what ZDDP percentages are found in AGIP Syn and Shell Helix Ultra 10W60 offerings. Yet, if Mobil1 is any guide, one might assume the ZDDP concentrations are substantially higher in the heavier viscosities than their lighter weight counterparts. The fact that many established air-cooled motorcycle manufacturers also recommend these heavier viscosity oils anecdotally supports this notion. In other words, at present, if you can find any well-known branded 20W50 oil, there is likely no "foreseeable" ZDDP issue. Just like E9 part availability, the future offers few guarantees.:confused:

I am surprised no one has quoted a well-worn thread in this age-old ZDDP debate. Due to post size limits, the salient points are contained in two "lengthy" posts that follow. The upshot is that one purported "GM" white paper debunks the ZDDP concerns as "myth" while purported "experts" debunk the white paper. It also includes the alleged history of ZDDP and other supposed auto industry "myths." It can be interesting reading for some, but read both positions before jumping to conclusions.:wink: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1049812/1 Again, the one thing that the experts in that thread fail to address is the "apparent" continued use of higher concentrations of ZDDP in the heavier viscosity oils.

I can't comment on the so-called "Classic oil" as being any more over hyped than some of the synthetics. For reasons, some of which have been noted, all things being equal, I would choose synthetic over conventional, as long as it is available in the ~20W50 viscosity range I prefer. I tend to buy in bulk for several vehicles, some of which are M10 and M30 powered. If I had regular access to a 0W60 oil at an acceptable price I would probably use it without a second thought. Mobil1 15W50 seems to work fine too, but it is not always available. In the same breath I have used conventional 20W50 motor oils, mostly of the "racing" varieties, since well before synthetic became widely available. To the best of my knowledge, I have never suffered a lubrication problem. The synthetics may be superior to the conventional 20W50vmotor oil, but that doesn't mean the conventional versions won't amply satisfy most M10 and M30 needs.

How about the debate regarding other miracles? E.g., Molybdenum disulfide (http://www.google.com/url?url=http:...sg=AFQjCNHIobfp_tPHmq66arbfyTwn8KlZEQ&cad=rjaMolylube), Graphite (Krex) Zmax?? And then there's car wax . . .





For reference, amusement and insomnia:

http://zddplus.com/about-us/tech-briefs/



Rebuilding your flathead V-8, note this gratuitous information from http://www.systemv.us/clemmie/flathead/:
Important Information about Motor Oils

warning-icon.png
It is extremely important that you read the
Motor Oil Warning sheet that comes with the Isky camshaft. The warning is NOT specific to Isky cams, but is generally true for all flat tappet cams, even haydraulic ones. The bottom line is this: the Federal Government has banned the anti-wear additives that used to be in motor oils, especially ZDDP (which is bad for catalytic convertors). The ban was phased in starting in the 1980's and as of 2004 all Zinc and Phosphates (i.e. ZDDP) were removed from "street legal" motor oils - that is any oil with "API Service Rating SM" or newer. The OEM manufacturers don't care because all new production vehicles use either roller tappets or are overhead cam followers, which don't need ZDDP. But this is bad news for all us hot rodders who are using flat tappet engines, especially with solid lifters! ZDDP is need for both the break-in and for the long term (Zinc in particular gets in the mircoscopic pours of the cam lobes and reduces wear on contact surfaces). The work around for this problem boils down to a few options:

  • Use a Racing or Specialty motor oil. This is not easy to find, and just because the bottle says "Racing" does not mean it has high levels of ZDDP. See the Motor Oil Warning for recommendations. Amsoil and Joe Gibbs have formulations with high levels of zinc. If the oil is meets API Service SM, its probably not what you want.
    • Update: As of early 2011, Valvoline is selling a specialty motor oil with higher ZDDP levels! Referred to as "Racing, Not Street Legal" oil, its availible in 5W-30, 10W-30 and 20W-50. You can get it at your local NAPA store. Try this link if you are interested. According to the datasheets, it has 0.14% Zinc, which is even higher than the Joe Gibbs HR oils (0.127%).
  • You can use an oil additive that replaces the ZDDP. You need to add this at every oil change, even though most are called "break-in" or "assembly" additives. There are a couple of options:
    • EOS Assembly Lubricant from any GM dealer. The part number has recently changed (from 1052367 to 88862586), and it says its not recommended as an oil additive, but that appears to be GM's way of saying the EPA doesn't like it.
    • Lucas Engine Break-In Oil Additive TB Plus Zinc, P/N 10063. You can order it from Summit Racing by the bottle or case
    • Comp Cams Engine Break-In Oil Additive, #159. You can order it online from Speedway using P/N 282-159 (if the link is broken just search Speedway's website).
  • Diesel oils used to be an option, I used Shell Rotella T 15W40 with Triple Protection for a while, but beware even Diesel oils are now under government mandates regarding Zinc levels. This should not be considered a viable option any more.
  • Or you can replace the cam & lifters every 1000 miles or so.
Currently, I am using the Joe Gibbs Conventional Hot Rod 15W-50 motor oil, althought I may switch to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" motor oil since NAPA carries it now. Both have high Zinc levels. Initially, I used a conventional SM-rated oil with the Lucas additive, and while I believe this is a good solution, I switched to the Joe Gibbs oil to avoid any possibility of "additive clash". You can order Joe Gibbs motor oils directly, or from select dealers. http://www.systemv.us/clemmie/flathead/
HRDP_0606_10_z+flat_tappet_cam_tech+zddp_content_table.jpg
Oil_Analysis_ZDDP.JPG



zddp.jpg
hrdp_0606_05_z%2Bflat_tappet_cam_tech%2Bassembly_lube.jpg
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http:/ /zddplus.com/how-it-works/

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lloyd

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Reference Cont.


Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.

The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.
If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1049812/1


Rejoinder continued in next post.
 

lloyd

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Rejoinder
I found this reply posted by RCX to the same GM TechLink article over on TurboBuicks.com. This thread was started when Pacos87GN posted Bob Olree’s Article from the Dec. 2007 GM Techlink publication for GM dealers and technicians titled: “Engine Oil Myths”.:



"We at AMI may not be lubrication engineers or tribologists, but we are engineers, and know how to read and interpret test reports. We have nothing but respect for Mr. Olree, indeed he is one of the most experienced engine lubrication engineers we have read, but we feel that his opinions leave some issues important to older classic and high-performance vehicle owners unanswered. To address them point by point:



”Engine Oil Myths -
Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.
The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.
Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."”


It is human nature to be unsure about new technology. We agree that the situations vis-à-vis Pennsylvania Crude oil and detergent oil is adequately explained by this aspect of human nature. The working fundamentals of many modern technologies such as engine oils are far beyond the grasp of an average person. When reading Bob Olree’s comments, we also acknowledge that they are applicable to an average vehicle and engine. There are few people who have as much direct experience with the issue of ZDDP and API test Sequences as he has.

However, to describe the current situation where oils are being marketed with lower ZDDP than a vehicle’s original specified requirement as merely another “new or unknown = bad” myth does not do the facts of the situation justice.

There are no test reports we know of which conclude that any low ZDDP oil is compatible with older, high spring pressure flat-tappet high-performance engines.

There is on the other hand, research that concludes that the minimum ZDDP requirement is directly related to the lifter foot pressure. In one SAE paper it is reported that: “at a ZDP level corresponding to 0.02% phosphorus, scuffing occurred at 200 pounds lifter load, while it required 240 and 480 pounds lifter load for oils containing 0.04 and 0.06% phosphorus, respectively, to initiate scuffing. At 0.08% phosphorus concentration, no scuffing occurred up to 600 pounds lifter load, the test hardware limit. Scuffing occurred at 350 pounds lifter load with no ZDP (0% phosphorus).”

The older engines and high-performance engines we are concerned about may have lifter foot pressures several times that of a low-performance engine such as those used in the Sequence III tests, and their wear characteristics are not predicted by common Sequence III testing methodology. An additional factor is the dynamic load at the lifter foot. Sequence III engines run at 3600 RPM maximum during the test. Most high-performance TR engines are regularly run to 6000 RPM. The inertial contribution to the lifter foot pressure increases as the square of the increase in RPM. This means that the inertial load at 6000 RPM is 2.67 times it’s value at 3600 RPM.


“The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.“

One of our engineers drives 1996 Chevrolet Impala SS with an LT1 engine which was filled at the factory with Mobil 1, and has never had any other oil in it. One might wonder if the Mobil 1 factory fill is actually the same spec as off the shelf product or if it is initially dosed with a break-in additive. It has indeed broken in well, and at over 200,000 miles it still has very little blow-by, so I would agree with Mr. Olree’s conclusion, for his Impala SS at least. Engine break-in problems are usually caused by improper break-in driving habits, not by the difference between synthetic or fossil based oil.



”The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).
Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942. In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range. In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests. A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range. However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.
Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.
The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.


We have never been able to find the results of these tests on older engines. We would need to study those reports to see exactly which engine types and cam/follower types were involved. The fact is that all API test sequences we have studied use non-performance engines with low spring pressures, indeed in the Sequence IIIG test, the static lifter load is 350 pounds . Many high-performance engines have as much as 500 pounds or more of lifter foot pressure. Referring to the Bennet data, this would indicate that in order to keep from scuffing, a ZDP level giving a .065 % minimum phosphorus level would need to be ensured. If one considers that fact that the ZDDP level constantly drops from the initial level as a vehicle is driven, a safety margin above that is advisable. This means that if one wishes to maintain .065% minimum phosphorus, more than that must be present in the initial fill. Our calculations estimate that if you start with a ZDDP level which gives .14% phosphorus, after 2000-3000 miles, the actual ZDDP remaining active has dropped to the point where there is just enough protection.


"The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.
- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.
- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.
Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)"


We wish that it were true that all modern oils contained 0.08% ZDP. Our recent tests of two major name brand oils bearing the SM API grade showed that they contain <0.06% phosphorus, therefore they cannot contain even that much ZDP.
We know that there are technologies other than ZDDP which can function as effective EP anti-wear agents for some engine designs, as proven with newer engines with roller cam followers. The most recent SM formulations in particular have shown a move to Boron based EP additives. We have been testing virgin oils on an ongoing basis, and most quality oils in early 2007 have had a phosphorus level in the 0.05% to 0.08% range, lower on average than that of the SL oils. This certainly shows a downward trend which the classic or high-performance car owner needs to be aware of.


”Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.“


I do not believe that anyone who has spent time investigating this situation would say that the new oils had insufficient EP characteristics for ALL flat tappet engines, especially low-performance engines. As a matter of fact, the number of oils with API certification proves that low-performance flat-tappet engines can pass the Sequence III tests with acceptable wear. Our study of the ASTM test sequences IIIE, IIIF, IIIG, IVA and VE required to achieve API certification reveal that NONE were developed using high-performance engines. Indeed, these tests were developed using relatively low-performance engines intended to model average current and emerging vehicle engine wear characteristics. This makes sense considering that the purpose of the ILSAC/API specifications is to provide a standard set of performance criteria for oil to be used in new over-the-road automobiles and trucks. The standards are not intended to infer any degree of backwards compatibility with older or specialty engines. While investigating the amount of ZDDP needed to protect engines Olree stated: “Arguing that modern oils should pass tests developed 25 years ago to protect engines built 30 years ago is a rather useless exercise ”. Since he is studying the situation from the perspective of designing the lubrication for the next generation of motors, we see his perspective for making such a statement. In doing so he is acknowledging that the test is not specifically designed to quantify oil’s performance with older engines. Unfortunately, “those” engines are the ones we enthusiasts run and care about.

At AMI our automotive group has 60 years of experience collectively with GM flat tappet engines. In all of this experience, the recent failures of stock cams and lifters due to severe wear is unprecedented. It is this experience as well as supporting reports from others we spoke to that made us try to find out the nature of the problem first hand. After preliminarily concluding that the low ZDDP levels in SL oils were the culprit for the wear we were seeing, we tried to obtain enough ZDDP for our own vehicles. We soon found out that major oil companies and additive manufacturers do not sell small quantities, and buying a large quantity is expensive! When others people in car clubs asked to buy ZDDP with us as well, we finally were able to put together enough justification to place an order. This is how we first found ourselves in the business of selling a ZDDP supplement.

It is our belief that there is no overt movement in the oil industry to create new oils that are bad for older engines as some conspiracy theorists may speculate. There certainly IS a movement in the oil industry to create new oils which are tailored to the specifications and requirements primarily of newer cars, and secondarily of older vehicles. This does not mean that they are concerned at all with 30 years old muscle cars. To the automotive industry an OLD car is 10 years old. The cars we care about are invisible to the OEM industry. While we have great faith in the engineering behind the new oils, we also notice that backwards compatibility with 100% of old engines is not on the product spec sheet. The oil manufacturers obviously know of the importance of the ZDDP to older flat tappet engines, as many of them are steering owners of these engines toward their ZDDP formulated diesel oil line, showing they acknowledge the possible need for higher levels of ZDDP in these engines. Unfortunately the characteristics and available viscosity ranges of diesel oil may not be suitable for our engines.

As Bob Olree knows better than we do, the amount of investment and research required to define, specify and perfect a set of tests and resulting standards is huge, and off-the-cuff recommendations like one sees in advertisements for oil supplements are poorly thought out and ill-advised. Our position on the right oil and additive package to use is simple: an individual should be using the oil specified at the time of manufacture of the specific vehicle. Period. An automotive engine is a fantastically complex and (sometimes) well thought out machine, and we believe that almost all oil additives are simply get rich schemes, impose unnecessary cost, and are unneeded at best, and like some chlorinated additives, dangerous at worst.

Our conclusion and current recommendation is to augment one of the new and superior base stock modern oils of the correct viscosity with additional ZDDP in order to bring the oil’s EP characteristics to that for which the engine was designed. We know from years of oil industry testing that ZDDP is compatible with all base stocks and other additive packages including the newer Boron EP additives, so there is little risk in adding it to achieve the equivalent of 0.12% phosphorus, a level similar to that formulated into SF or SG oils. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1049812/1
 

Arde

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Applause!

Tierfreund, considering the avalanche of new data I think I found your Jaguar's problem. Wrong oil.

Add 4 teaspoons of ZZZZDDDDDPPPPPP to the Jaguar engine and see me in the morning.

Not to get into personal stuff, but shouldn't your handle be Tirefreund to reflect your deep automotive interest?
 

Ohmess

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I am something of a novice on this stuff, but it seems to me that folks interested in the specific manner in which the particular oil they are using is working in their engine could seek out the services of these guys: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

About five years ago I used them to set a baseline for the M62 in my e39. I haven't checked back with them, but probably will soon.

I may also get a baseline on my e9 now that I think of it.

I heard about these guys from my son, back when he worked for a group of guys who maintained a multimillion car collection.
 

Tierfreund

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Tierfreund, considering the avalanche of new data I think I found your Jaguar's problem. Wrong oil.

Add 4 teaspoons of ZZZZDDDDDPPPPPP to the Jaguar engine and see me in the morning.

Not to get into personal stuff, but shouldn't your handle be Tirefreund to reflect your deep automotive interest?

I´ve found the root of my Jag´s problem as well. And it ain´t in the oil... :)

Who says my automotive interest is dearer to me than my Friendship with animals?. Leave my handle alone if you please...
 
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David

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I just use what Carl Nelson recommends: RedLine 20/50. I can't think of anyone that has more empirical data on what's best for these cars.
 
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