Lightweight early CSL on BaT

[leonine99]

To use as comparison, I'm surprised Terry Sayther's early CSL didn't pull in more money:

34-Years-Owned 1972 BMW 3.0 CSL 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a 34-Years-Owned 1972 BMW 3.0 CSL 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #29,363.

bringatrailer.com

But he has a very good (and smart) attitude about it:

"I’m not unhappy that the car didn't sell now, because each time that has happened in the past, the value has continued to increase"

 

[Markos]

To use as comparison, I'm surprised Terry Sayther's early CSL didn't pull in more money:

34-Years-Owned 1972 BMW 3.0 CSL 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a 34-Years-Owned 1972 BMW 3.0 CSL 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #29,363.

bringatrailer.com

But he has a very good (and smart) attitude about it:

"I’m not unhappy that the car didn't sell now, because each time that has happened in the past, the value has continued to increase"

Key phrase: “each time that has happened”

If you continually have a car that doesn’t sell, it is an indication that the asking price or reserve isn’t inline with market value. Yes the market goes up, but the seller snaps to that value once again. He or she doesn’t adjust for vehicle condition, or they are asking for a number above market value. Interestingly enough, We’ve seen it with other Golf CSL’s in the past.

 

[craterface]

Key phrase: “each time that has happened”

If you continually have a car that doesn’t sell, it is an indication that the asking price or reserve isn’t inline with market value. Yes the market goes up, but the seller snaps to that value once again. He or she doesn’t adjust for vehicle condition, or they are asking for a number above market value. Interestingly enough, We’ve seen it with other Golf CSL’s in the past.

Then again March 27 wasn't the greatest time to sell a classic car. The markets were in a free fall, etc. I bet this car would make 130-150 these days, expecially if Terry consigned it to Drivers Source.

 

[Markos]

Then again March 27 wasn't the greatest time to sell a classic car. The markets were in a free fall, etc. I bet this car would make 130-150 these days, expecially if Terry consigned it to Drivers Source.

That’s very true. Both points. Cars and homes are going nuts right now and it is a much better time to sell. But there is also a big difference between being able to build/maintain cars and make them presentable for auction. Oldenzal is a great example. They know how to make cars very presentable for auctions. Same
with 911r on BaT - who sold the $100K Jade ‘74. It is crazy to think that a US carbed ‘74 came in 11K under one of the most rare CSL’s in existence.

Despite my comments above I think Terry’s car is worth more tha the RNM price. I think carb CSL’s are best suited for history nuts and existing injected CSL owners. Recent history has shown that they don’t perform well at auction. The black car did well because it looks cool and clean, and came with the original parts.

 

[HB Chris]

But Terry’s coupe needs much, much more that the black CSL.

 

[Stevehose]

ding ding winner winner chicken dinner

Key phrase: “each time that has happened”

If you continually have a car that doesn’t sell, it is an indication that the asking price or reserve isn’t inline with market value. Yes the market goes up, but the seller snaps to that value once again. He or she doesn’t adjust for vehicle condition, or they are asking for a number above market value. Interestingly enough, We’ve seen it with other Golf CSL’s in the past.

 

[E911]

To do this right will be well north of 100k IMO... it will be a complete bare metal resto plus a ton of time in sourcing... if you care about date codes, ect... I don’t believe we’ve seen a proper 169 car go over the block yet to know what their true value is but I continue to believe they will have their day in the end. Maybe 80 of these gems left?

 

[craterface]

To do this right will be well north of 100k IMO... it will be a complete bare metal resto plus a ton of time in sourcing... if you care about date codes, ect... I don’t believe we’ve seen a proper 169 car go over the block yet to know what their true value is but I continue to believe they will have their day in the end. Maybe 80 of these gems left?

Mario at VSR has been working hard to resurrect a carb CSL for one of our coupers in the Carolinas. I won’t say who, because I guess he wants to keep the project on the down low. But that should be a good, correct car when it is done. Will be nice to see it. Maybe at Amelia or the Vintage. I never saw the Colorado one that Craig Brody sold a few years back, which I believe stayed local in southeast FL. Would be nice to see that one too. Very few correct carb CSLs in the USA!

 

[Stevehose]

as I recall Craig’s didn’t have the original engine

Mario at VSR has been working hard to resurrect a carb CSL for one of our coupers in the Carolinas. I won’t say who, because I guess he wants to keep the project on the down low. But that should be a good, correct car when it is done. Will be nice to see it. Maybe at Amelia or the Vintage. I never saw the Colorado one that Craig Brody sold a few years back, which I believe stayed local in southeast FL. Would be nice to see that one too. Very few correct carb CSLs in the USA!

 

[Wes]

My 5 cents worth is that the original 169 carbed CSL's are a little under-rated in terms of market appeal and value, but that's just me.
Perhaps the lack of the 'go withs' such as factory bat spoiler, air dam etc put people off along with a lower HP than the injected ones.
My suspicion is that if you had the money this would be a great buy for a long term project to get it back to factory spec, assuming the original block can be saved.
This might be one of those cars where we all kick ourselves in 5 years time.
As I've said before, if E9's were as common in Aus as the US and UK I'd be buying them up all over the place and just waiting for a rainy day.
To my thinking, demand only has to stay the same for supply to continue to contract. This in turn will place upward pressure on prices for cars and rare parts.
Curious what others think.

 

[tferrer]

Question for the CSL cognosenti. I thought I read somewhere that BMW didn't utilize the thin gauge body panels for those initial 169 carbed cars. And today I spoke with a bmw collector and long term owner of a 2275 car that said the same. His opinion is the first 169 cars were standard paneled cars.

What do the experts think? Is this true?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Markos]

Question for the CSL cognosenti. I thought I read somewhere that BMW didn't utilize the thin gauge body panels for those initial 169 carbed cars. And today I spoke with a bmw collector and long term owner of a 2275 car that said the same. His opinion is the first 169 cars were standard paneled cars.

What do the experts think? Is this true?

Thanks in advance!

I’m no CSL expert, but I’m pretty good at compiling information. I don’t believe that this statement is true. The 1160kg Carb CSL was the lightest CSL built, and weighed less than the injected 2275 lightweights. This comes from Yannick, who is the expert and articulated this fact in a CS Registey article 30 years ago.

It is also written in a period carbureted Alpina CSL review which mentions the thin gauge steel.

Lastly, early on in this video with Erik @ Coupeking give his 221 carb CSL a notable roof prodding and refers to the lightweight metal. I wouldn’t consider coupe king CSL experts relative to some resident historians, but they have plenty of cars to compare and contrast. The car 2212190 has injection now.

Anyway, what your friend may be referring to is the fact that many if not all carb CSL’s were badged as a CS.

This is owned by BMW Classic:

 

[Keshav]

And today I spoke with a bmw collector and long term owner of a 2275 car that said the same

That is a shocking statement from a long term Csl owner, goes to show how little some owners inform them selves about what they have and the pedigree of Csl’s.

 

[tferrer]

Thanks for the quick response and information, guys. Thanks for the link @Markos. I'd seen that in the past and it was just information I'd always accepted as factual for all the series. I was also quite surprised by the opinion. After all, there's no refuting the scale. It left me scratching my head.

 

[giannicsl]

I also offer my 2 cents of experience (inherited from these forums)
given the csL of bmw classic the orange one in the picture is not a great example of originality ... quite the contrary
it is a mix between the first csL carb and the first csl injection
many details are put at random and this is not nice for a classic bmw showroom

 

[giannicsl]

the first 169 had to be the purest in weight
they had no decals
they had no hood, only CS
no pavilion light on the left
fast hood closures and different however from fast injection hood closures
yes lamp on dashboard
or in the glove box
no 3 stop light
(only the latest 169)
you perspex
si alpina flying (last petri)
all parts aluminum
and remainder of 0.6 and not 1mm
hub more protruding hubs
you schell 100
you schell with headrest
no air conditioning
yes double kidney exclusive CSL then 5 black anodized blades
these are just some details that made the first 169 unique
the 2275 was already an on-demand product
often unclean
that is, you could have ina csl2275 with the same weight or almost the same as a 2211 2212, but only with injection
you could have the same things as a light 169
, but you paid them and a lot too
or city pack, that is a csi in all respects, but with a dedicated engine

 

[giannicsl]

add, but I can be serenely denied, that the first 169 did not have the stripes, as they did not have the L on the rear hood
I can also say that all the csl had black plastic covers combined with scheel 100/101
I can say that the csl racing package 2211 2212 2275 included the black soundproof strip, and not in body color
as well as the never black wheel arch
some csl 169 had the stripes and if they had them they must also have the writing on the trunk csL and no cs
I would also add that the rear csL writing for the 169 that provided for it was different from the subsequent high csL writings
that is, the L was taller and more stylized
the fast hood latches had to be 3 screws and not 4
, but on these and other points there are many opinions and many different opinions
I am not a suitable person to relate, but I expose only and only my humble knowledge

 

[Markos]

I also offer my 2 cents of experience (inherited from these forums)
given the csL of bmw classic the orange one in the picture is not a great example of originality ... quite the contrary
it is a mix between the first csL carb and the first csl injection
many details are put at random and this is not nice for a classic bmw showroom

Agreed. It was fairly modified before they acquired it though.

 

[giannicsl]

Marcos is right, but it is also true that the average user who takes a BMW and tries to restore it according to the canons of the time take reference. Of course what he sees in the parent company, so in this case orange BMW CSL orange which I repeat a nice a nice example, but certainly not, in my opinion that corresponds to the aesthetic canons of the time. But of course this is not just a problem of BMW with oldtimers, but of all the manufacturers who naturally devote little time to details which, however, for purists, enthusiasts and not for traders who have another culture and are very important, are essential for those who want to have a specimen at home, let's say as genuine as possible, right!

 

[Markos]

I can also say that all the csl had black plastic covers combined with scheel 100/101

Not sure I agree with that one.

Marcos is right, but it is also true that the average user who takes a BMW and tries to restore it according to the canons of the time take reference. Of course what he sees in the parent company, so in this case orange BMW CSL orange which I repeat a nice a nice example, but certainly not, in my opinion that corresponds to the aesthetic canons of the time. But of course this is not just a problem of BMW with oldtimers, but of all the manufacturers who naturally devote little time to details which, however, for purists, enthusiasts and not for traders who have another culture and are very important, are essential for those who want to have a specimen at home, let's say as genuine as possible, right!

Personally, I’ve never seen a completely original carb CSL. I’ve seen a lot that are truly amazing and certainly close, but nothing that was exactly as it left the factory. Makes sense. They are the oldest, the most spartan exterior and interior, and had 20 less HP than their siblings.