Need help assessing value of a CSi

FastCougar

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OK guys, I have a lot of video and pictures which are now being uploaded, but the videos need to be pieced together and will be uploaded later tonight. In a nutshell this is SOLID with virtually no rust. There are imperfections since it wasn't a complete garage/trailer queen, but the lack of rust is a testament to it's pampering and never sat outside or driven in the rain unless caught off guard as the pictures and video will demonstrate. There are 87 new photos uploading, so I'll simply link to the photo set on Flickr as there are simply too many to show in this thread, but I will post a few of the highlights in a few minutes.

A lot of the value depends on the market itself and I've got my eye on a few eBay auctions that have run recently and a few that are currently running and featured on BaT. Based on what others are going for in inferior shape and various stages of "non-stock" condition, I'd base the value around $35K. Honestly, the car is in such great shape that it's easier for me to point out the imperfections with full disclosure than to be a used car salesman and trump up the car. Your thoughts and input are greatly appreciated!

Getting ready to do my thing ...


Driver's side front fender areas of concern ...

Driver's side from shock tower ... road grime only here ...


Behind the Driver's side fender ... looked through the triangle onto the firewall and it's all clean (show this in the video, hard to get on camera, hopefully it shows well on the video).


Slight surface rust on the leading edge of the rocker lapping edge, metal is solid, only surface rust as the coating has started to peal off.


Passenger's side looks very similar (I show in detail in the video)

Only real rust I saw that might need attention is in the spare tire well.
Outside peal through, doesn't go through to the inside. This is where the finish blistered from exhaust heat and exposed bare metal to the elements.


Looks as though this was previously fixed, but without removing paint, not sure exactly what was done.


I rapped on this area from under the car and within with a 3/8" ratchet and they are solid, so this appears to be surface rust.


Overview shot


Rear shock towers are near perfect with only slight surface rust


Passenger's side rear tower was squeaking, so I retorqued the nuts ... note the difference in the top rubbers ... squeaking is gone, but I'd replace the top stop bushing on both to match. The struts look newish, I'd have to hunt the paper trail to see when they were replaced. Whoever did it reused a stock rubber (I suspect this one since the other looks new and nowhere near the same).


Driver's side front frame rails ... road grime only :)


Driver's side floor panel and rocker seams, light hints of surface rust through pealed undercoating.


I won't bore you with passenger's side shots as it's a mirror image.

Close up showing it's surface peal ... like I said, it's been driven, but well cared for.


Wheels could use a bead blasting and refinishing, but no major gouges or curb rash to speak of. Roundel need refinish or replace and 1 is missing.


Most rust I found was on the factory exhaust :)


A few paint blemishes (rock chips covered with off-color match)


Passenger's side door leading edge ... slight surface rust after paint chipped.


Blemished passenger's side roundel - needs replacing (will have to ask Dad how this happened)


Hard to see, but mid-frame there is an ever so slight crease in the body where something hit it.


Parking damage to the passenger's side rear CSL fender flaring.


Chipped fingernails :(


Paint scuff (down to primer, not to metal), but this picture also shows how perfect the hood is fitted.


Hard to see, but similar scuff around the headlight bezel ... tiny ... rock chip perhaps? Again, only to primer, not to metal.


Interior trim issues:


She's see her fair share of sunny days as evidenced by the worn driver's ingress/egress bolster wear.


Starts right up every time ... again and again ... leading to hand/key wear ;)


Driver's side visor pivot joint needs replacing.


Slight "cloudiness" to the fuel/temp cluster cover.


Headliner slash (no idea how this happened, probably Dad being careless moving something).


That's about it for blemishes folks ... I cover a few minor points in the video, but overall, she's SOLID with minor imperfections here and there. Your thoughts?
 
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Nicad

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Well presented car. A shot looking up at the underside of the dash near the fuse panel would be useful. Good Luck with the sale.
 

FastCougar

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Well presented car. A shot looking up at the underside of the dash near the fuse panel would be useful. Good Luck with the sale.
No signs of rust on the firewall, but there is some rust colored splatter from a brownish red goop sealant that holds sound deadening material throughout the lower firewall area, like it was sprayed on at different angles ... I cover this in the video, which I hope to post tonight. Here are the request shots along with under the hood shots ... can't believe that I forgot those.

Door importation tag


Looks like rust, but it's not, it's a sealant/adhesive of some sort ... if you look close, you can see it running down and streaking in spots.




Big glop of the stuff in the lower center of the frame where the sound deadening plank for the passenger well is stuck to the lower firewall.






All the floorboards have the factory sound deadening material in place. The white residue is remanants of baking soda that my father used to coat the floor pans with when stored to absorb moisture when storing the car for the last 6+ months.


Driver's side door jamb tag


A few years back my father had a 2x4 fall on the rear quarter panel ... the place that he has respray it after removing the dent didn't color match too well, in certain light it's noticeable, it other angles/light, you can't tell.




Hood is SOLID!






All the stock sound deadening material is in place ... not sure if it was removed and replaced when it was repainted in 1995/96 or if it's original.


Only the slightest hint of rust on the raised seams in select spots where the paint has chipped off.








Not sure why, but Dad had them NOT paint over the vin, perhaps so it could be read easier?


Closeup of the only rust in the engine bay that I could find.






 

Arde

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Thanks for sharing the pictures and the story behind this car.
I see some ways of spicing up the story behind this car but this time I will resist cause I may get misinterpreted and get some bad juju. Interior and engine bay look great to me.

On the little details one would expect in a 30-35k$ I would say:

- It is missing the under hood foam insulation, easy to procure and install
- A Euro car deserves the Hellas or Cibie headlights instead of the US sealed beams
- Sun visor thingies are available again, easy to install
- If it starts every time the jumper cables in the picture are surely to help other cars stranded by the side of the road. I would rather give them 20$ to call AAA than jump start them with my classic car.
- Unpainted VIN I think is correct, do not paint it now
- Personally I do not like the silver fender arches
- Shock tower elephant skins, these are available again, probably worth replacing
interesting to se if the tower has/had any cracks and were repaired as most usually get it.
- What does documentation say on the drivetrain? Original engine? Mileage? 4 vs 5 speed?
 

FastCougar

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Thanks for sharing the pictures and the story behind this car.
I see some ways of spicing up the story behind this car but this time I will resist cause I may get misinterpreted and get some bad juju. Interior and engine bay look great to me.

On the little details one would expect in a 30-35k$ I would say:

- It is missing the under hood foam insulation, easy to procure and install
- A Euro car deserves the Hellas or Cibie headlights instead of the US sealed beams
- Sun visor thingies are available again, easy to install
- If it starts every time the jumper cables in the picture are surely to help other cars stranded by the side of the road. I would rather give them 20$ to call AAA than jump start them with my classic car.
- Unpainted VIN I think is correct, do not paint it now
- Personally I do not like the silver fender arches
- Shock tower elephant skins, these are available again, probably worth replacing
interesting to se if the tower has/had any cracks and were repaired as most usually get it.
- What does documentation say on the drivetrain? Original engine? Mileage? 4 vs 5 speed?
My father has always kept jumper cables in his cars ... never know when you might leave your lights on and kill the battery. The problem with removing the CSL arches is that they are riveted to the existing lips, so removal would require rebuilding the stock fenders, which wouldn't be hard, just very time consuming ... He'll leave these stylistic touches to the new owner.

I'll be sure to correct any trim issues that don't require a heap of work. I'm very tempted to fix the driver's side window, but I being tasked with selling this car couldn't come at a worse time for me personally as I have a ton of projects around the house starting to back-up. I'll be taking 2+ weeks off work here soon to build a much needed deck. I'll find the time to replace the visor joint, and the other interior trim items that I can.

I'm going to spend the evenings over the next few days/weeks actually transcribing the Italian documents as I still have fluent speaking friends from when we lived there. I'm also going to be taking all the paperwork and putting it in chronological order as well as creating a spreadsheet of all known work done to the car and parts purchased ... that will answer more questions that I'm sure will be asked. The previous owner has a "things that need done before importing" hand written list with all items crossed off and it's rather extensive. I assume he wanted to take care of this long list before coming back stateside because of importation costs on parts we buy here ... over there, they were cheaper.
 

bfeng

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dreaded fender gutter rust

Hate to say this but the car looks like it has the classic rust issue in the gutter than rust longitudinally under the "channel' edge of the outer fender. That tiny bit of bubbling plus the patched up intermediate fender suggest ... (I didn't say must, just suggest) that the fenders need to come off and you'll have a small bucket of rust flakes from both sides. The intermediate fender piece will be replaced. Outer and inner fenders are hopefully okay and can be reused
41141814039
41141814037
but hopefully not 41141826897

The good thing is the rear bulkhead areas look ok. So this might be pretty straight forward. It might also be limited to only the passenger side. Last time I asked, it was about $6-8k to do both sides ... fenders should be cut off to fix this sort of problem. Seems expensive, but included in that price is treating all the exposed areas to prevent any future front fender rust issues.

i would not sweat any of the little trim issues. Unless you're trying to raise it up to a #2 condition, buyers will not care about those details. Those things are easy to sort out later.
 

FastCougar

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Hate to say this but the car looks like it has the classic rust issue in the gutter than rust longitudinally under the "channel' edge of the outer fender. That tiny bit of bubbling plus the patched up intermediate fender suggest ... (I didn't say must, just suggest) that the fenders need to come off and you'll have a small bucket of rust flakes from both sides. The intermediate fender piece will be replaced. Outer and inner fenders are hopefully okay and can be reused
41141814039
41141814037
but hopefully not 41141826897

The good thing is the rear bulkhead areas look ok. So this might be pretty straight forward. It might also be limited to only the passenger side. Last time I asked, it was about $6-8k to do both sides ... fenders should be cut off to fix this sort of problem. Seems expensive, but included in that price is treating all the exposed areas to prevent any future front fender rust issues.

i would not sweat any of the little trim issues. Unless you're trying to raise it up to a #2 condition, buyers will not care about those details. Those things are easy to sort out later.
I just went out into the garage, popped the hood and gave the driver's side (only side I can access in the garage) is fully sealed with no blistering or peeling of any sort. How are these panels attached? They appear to be tack welded or somehow bonded together based on a parts diagram. To prove it's condition, would you recommend removing the elephant skin sound barrier? If so, do you happen to know the part # so that I can get an idea how much it would cost to replace these. I had no idea the front end of these cars was so damn complicated! The manufacturing process certainly has come a long way in rehanging sheet metal. Conversely, the uninterrupted fender line into the roof line sure is nice!
 

bfeng

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I'm probably wrong then

Pictures can be so misleading. I should say that I could easily be wrong about what I think I see. What I was looking for were small bubbles in the bottom of the channel in the outer fender and the condition of the vertical surface just inboard of that.

Guys, I'm sorry, but don't take what I said too seriously. The car is so clean that I could be just misreading the pictures.

John
 

FastCougar

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Pictures can be so misleading. I should say that I could easily be wrong about what I think I see. What I was looking for were small bubbles in the bottom of the channel in the outer fender and the condition of the vertical surface just inboard of that.

Guys, I'm sorry, but don't take what I said too seriously. The car is so clean that I could be just misreading the pictures.

John
You are correct about the passenger's side, but as far as I can tell, it's only the to leading edge of the seam. I'm going get some video tomorrow and add it into the video footage I got yesterday. Video is such a better medium for this kind of thing.
 

FastCougar

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I'm working on getting my father's permission to remove the elephant skins in order to show condition, but even I'm hesitant due to the stickers and costs of replacements. Can anyone please help me in locating the stickers and skins? Part numbers would be a great start. Thanks again! In the meantime, I backed the car out of the garage tonight and removed the driver's side rocker cover and WOW!







 
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Nicad

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Since you have the rocker off, peel back the carpet and have a look from the inside. Looks nice to me. All your photos are worth the work you are doing.
 

FastCougar

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As requested ... the rear look just as great, but I would have to pull all the floor padding and sound deadening to show the floor pans ... something I would consider doing in strategic spots if a serious buyer insisted.



 

FastCougar

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So, I got around to pulling the under hood skins that run the length of the inner fender from the firewall to engine compartment divider and then from the divider down to the divider by the headlights. The driver's side looks OK with some rust scale down by the light divider, but the passenger's side has some rust through :(

So, in order to remediate the issue, I'm wondering if the inner fender needs replacement. We are looking to sell the car, so it would most likely be something that we would discount on the sale price. I was thinking the car was worth somewhere around $35K before this ... what do you all think is a fair price now considering these finding? Better yet, how should I remediate the issue in the interim ... rust converter and 2 part primer? It sucks because now the car doesn't show near as well, but at least we now know and hopefully the purchaser will appreciate this.

Driver's side after cleanup (nothing harsh like a wire-wheel)











Before cleaning, right after removing sound deadening skins











Passenger's side after cleanup



The two round holes are from the ID Tag rivets






It's hard to look at, but I've seen MUCH worse :(


I suspect in order to properly remediate, I need to strip out the wheel well undercoating and see just how bad the lap joints are with the outer fender. This may be patchable vs. replaceable. However, getting to the area between the windshield and the engine divider from underneath is impossible without a lot of cutting. So, thoughts, suggestions, advice ... I'm open to it all.
 
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jamesw

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Good work. How did you remove the mastic coating so cleanly and thoroughly!? Great work.

I think you have done a fantastic job marketing this car. The buyer will know exactly what he/she is getting. As you know, a 'market' hates uncertainty.

Cheers
James
 

FastCougar

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Good work. How did you remove the mastic coating so cleanly and thoroughly!? Great work.

I think you have done a fantastic job marketing this car. The buyer will know exactly what he/she is getting. As you know, a 'market' hates uncertainty.

Cheers
James
After scraping with a screwdriver, I hit the area with a very large welder's brush and finally hit it with some brake cleaner on a shop towel, not directly applied to the surface (highly pressurized and would make mess and possibly cause damage to paint). Below is a video of me doing this work. You see everything except the wipe down with the brake cleaner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkseb-hit0w
 

Nicad

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Bummer, but you are going about the right way selling it. Keep the videos coming.
 

EJ333

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Well done video. I really liked how you fast-forwarded. The funny thing is that when you "pecked" at certain rust spots in fast-foward mode, it reminded me of the old Woody Woodpecker cartoons. Seriously though, your video gave me confidence to someday remove my skins too and find out what lurks beneath. But for now I'll keep my eyes closed since there are no visible telltale signs and just keep it on my tinkering list.
 

dealhunter0

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Wow, truly an eye-opener to see how much corrosion that sound dampening material can conceal. Very sad to see that kind of damage on what is otherwise such a well-preserved car. Kudos for your honest presentation. How many other very nice e9s are out there with serious issues hiding in this area?
 
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